Driving a Minibus

[TC99]

SammyW said:

I have been told that a Section 19 permit will exclude me from the work/voluntary problem? Is this the case? Also, does the maximum vehicle weight include passengers? We do have the option of lighter minibuses that should come in under the weight limit.

Just to be clear, if there is any possibility that I would be driving illegally then I wouldn't get behind the wheel, which is why I'm looking for some independent advice. Thanks for all your replies so far, clearly this is quite a grey area.

It's quite possible to exceed the MAM weight (maximum authorised mass) by taking 16 rugby players and their kit. VOSA and the police can pull you over and take you and passengers to a weigh bridge if they want, especially likely if you are rude to them.

[mph1977]

abbotsmike said:

The school thing is complicated. Many schools currently use the reasoning that you are paid to be a teacher, NOT a driver, therefore driving is an incidental duty and thus OK. As far as I know it is yet to be tested in court.

that's my understandign as well ...

as an aside do school minibuses come under s.19 permit scheme?

abbotsmike said:

On weight, you CANNOT drive a 17 seater. Except for a few speciality vehicles designed for primary school kids, ALL 17 seaters gross over 3.5t. The XLWB transits with the 4 wheel rear axle definitely do, as we've been through this at uni. A 17 seater sprinter plates at 4.3T IIRC.

unless it;s an 'accessible' vehicle - a row of removable seats and a fixed folding ramp or lightweight lift makes it one ...

abbotsmike said:

If you sit down and do the maths, you'll find that a 15 seater transit is perilously close to 3.5t, and yet even when over 3.5t, it doesn't look overloaded. Almost as if they designed to to be run over its plated weight.

Happy to answer any other questions if I can, been through this quite a bit as a scout leader and with university.

weight can be an issue - especially if you are carrying more than just people - once upon a time you used to 16 +driver LDVs with 'expedition' racks on them at many schools - weight wise i dread to think ...

that said many 3.5 tonne MAM vehicles have design gross weights closer to 4 tonne , in some cases a 3.7 or 3.9 tonne vehicle is offered with exactly the same drivetrain and suspension...

[Zeeky]

The school has at least one S19 permit. It is evident that the scheme applies to it. OP is not allowed to be paid to drive. If he drives in the course of his employment it is difficult to see how he is not being paid to do so although the DfT might have a different view on this.

[Jon1967x]

This is interesting as my wife is a pe teacher and does this regularly -

She tells me the school bus she was driving is an 18 seater (it's just gone back and a new one is imminent) She has a d1 license. (She thinks so anyway, she passed 30 years ago) and is tested regularly by 'county' - her employer - and given a certificate accordingly Given her employer is in effect certifying her to drive, she's thought nothing of it, but as I understand it, driving is a personal liability thing and you can't just say you were told it was ok.

Should I be putting all our possessions into my sole name?

[R0G]

Jon1967x said:

This is interesting as my wife is a pe teacher and does this regularly -

She tells me the school bus she was driving is an 18 seater (it's just gone back and a new one is imminent) She has a d1 license. (She thinks so anyway, she passed 30 years ago) and is tested regularly by 'county' - her employer - and given a certificate accordingly Given her employer is in effect certifying her to drive, she's thought nothing of it, but as I understand it, driving is a personal liability thing and you can't just say you were told it was ok.

Should I be putting all our possessions into my sole name?

Pre 1997 D1 and driving a school minibus where a 19 exemption applies = no probs no matter what size or weight it is

This thread was about driving the same on a B licence

[Jon1967x]

R0G said:

Jon1967x said:

This is interesting as my wife is a pe teacher and does this regularly -

She tells me the school bus she was driving is an 18 seater (it's just gone back and a new one is imminent) She has a d1 license. (She thinks so anyway, she passed 30 years ago) and is tested regularly by 'county' - her employer - and given a certificate accordingly Given her employer is in effect certifying her to drive, she's thought nothing of it, but as I understand it, driving is a personal liability thing and you can't just say you were told it was ok.

Should I be putting all our possessions into my sole name?

Pre 1997 D1 and driving a school minibus where a 19 exemption applies = no probs no matter what size or weight it is

This thread was about driving the same on a B licence

Thx.. They don't exactly make it easy
If they took one look at my wife's driving however they may want to reconsider

[TC99]

mph1977 said:

weight can be an issue - especially if you are carrying more than just people - once upon a time you used to 16 +driver LDVs with 'expedition' racks on them at many schools - weight wise i dread to think ...

that said many 3.5 tonne MAM vehicles have design gross weights closer to 4 tonne , in some cases a 3.7 or 3.9 tonne vehicle is offered with exactly the same drivetrain and suspension...

You only need a section 19 permit if you take contributions to running costs etc. If you take no money at all, you don't need one.

[mph1977]

TC99 said:

mph1977 said:

weight can be an issue - especially if you are carrying more than just people - once upon a time you used to 16 +driver LDVs with 'expedition' racks on them at many schools - weight wise i dread to think ...

that said many 3.5 tonne MAM vehicles have design gross weights closer to 4 tonne , in some cases a 3.7 or 3.9 tonne vehicle is offered with exactly the same drivetrain and suspension...

You only need a section 19 permit if you take contributions to running costs etc. If you take no money at all, you don't need one.

which is why many schools, youth groups, community groups ( not specifically community transport) and charities run s.19 busses ...

community transport groups and pushing the limits of s.19 is something which causes gnashing of teeth with small business small bus operators

[TC99]

Zeeky said:

The school has at least one S19 permit. It is evident that the scheme applies to it. OP is not allowed to be paid to drive. If he drives in the course of his employment it is difficult to see how he is not being paid to do so although the DfT might have a different view on this.

The DES guidance places a lot of stress on what is an "incidental driver" rather than a person employed to drive.

[TC99]

Jon1967x said:

This is interesting as my wife is a pe teacher and does this regularly -

She tells me the school bus she was driving is an 18 seater (it's just gone back and a new one is imminent) She has a d1 license. (She thinks so anyway, she passed 30 years ago) and is tested regularly by 'county' - her employer - and given a certificate accordingly Given her employer is in effect certifying her to drive, she's thought nothing of it, but as I understand it, driving is a personal liability thing and you can't just say you were told it was ok.

Should I be putting all our possessions into my sole name?

A mini bus is a vehicle that has by design, between 8 and 16 passengers seats. Any vehicle that has more than 16 passenger seats is not a mini bus, it's a bus and requires a PCV licence to drive it.

As for liability, this can be shared as such, in that if your boss knows you have a B licence and gets you to drive a 5000kg mini bus, and you get caught, you are both liable to prosecution, you won't get a lesser penalty though, it's your responsibility to ensure you have the correct licence to drive AND that the vehicle is defect free.

[TC99]

I have provided training to a school that had two LDV Convoy mini buses, they looked and were in fact the same weight. However, the MAM weight was different with one at 3500KG's and the other 3750KG's. The converter companies had plated them differently. One was legal for a B licence driver as long as they conformed to all the conditions I posted above and the other was absolutely not.

Getting the Head of the school to understand this was a job of work. I had to go to the Governing body, and never got invited to train that school again.

[TC99]

R0G said:

Pre 1997 D1 and driving a school minibus where a 19 exemption applies = no probs no matter what size or weight it is

This thread was about driving the same on a B licence

An 18 seat bus is not a mini bus! Mercedes Vario's are the main culprit here.

[TC99]

I have to do MiDAS training for 8 teachers tomorrow. I wish I had duel control.

[Jon1967x]

TC99 said:

R0G said:

Pre 1997 D1 and driving a school minibus where a 19 exemption applies = no probs no matter what size or weight it is

This thread was about driving the same on a B licence

An 18 seat bus is not a mini bus! Mercedes Vario's are the main culprit here.

I quizzed the defendant (my wife) and she he'd heard of the 19 exemption and thought the 19 applied to the number of seats (I presume that's just a case of unfortunate numbering?) She has also said they were changing the (mini)bus because of all the problems with younger teachers not being able to drive them, it seems a lot of new teachers are using their training money to get the appropriate qualification.

[ilikestellaartoi]

TC99 said:

I have to do MiDAS training for 8 teachers tomorrow. I wish I had duel control.

Would they not hang their sabres and pistols at the entrance?

[wolf1]

From Fords own website

Transit 15 seater unladen 2268Kg, GVW 3500Kg = 1232Kg Payload
Transit 17 seater unladen 2620kg, GVW 4100kg = 1480Kg Payload

Now bear in mind that will more than likely be without fuel so you can add approx 90kg for a full tank of fuel, Then Roughly 80Kg per adult (excludes powerfully built directors) and as the kids are 16-18 then a rough guess of 60Kg per child.

15 seater at full capacity would be approx 3278Kg (1 Adult 14 Kids)
17 seater at full capacity would be approx 3750Kg (1 Adult 16 Kids)
(I have made no allowance for kit etc or the vehicle having a wheelchair lift etc)

[abbotsmike]

wolf1 said:

From Fords own website

Transit 15 seater unladen 2268Kg, GVW 3500Kg = 1232Kg Payload
Transit 17 seater unladen 2620kg, GVW 4100kg = 1480Kg Payload

Now bear in mind that will more than likely be without fuel so you can add approx 90kg for a full tank of fuel, Then Roughly 80Kg per adult (excludes powerfully built directors) and as the kids are 16-18 then a rough guess of 60Kg per child.

15 seater at full capacity would be approx 3278Kg (1 Adult 14 Kids)
17 seater at full capacity would be approx 3750Kg (1 Adult 16 Kids)
(I have made no allowance for kit etc or the vehicle having a wheelchair lift etc)

Yeah it's when you have 15 adults that it becomes a bit close. Or 13 adults and kit for a weekend away piled up on the two empty seats! Interestingly, the newest transits only seem to come in 14 seat flavour, haven't seen any brand new 15 seaters on the stock we hire.

[Zeeky]

TC99 said:

Zeeky said:

The school has at least one S19 permit. It is evident that the scheme applies to it. OP is not allowed to be paid to drive. If he drives in the course of his employment it is difficult to see how he is not being paid to do so although the DfT might have a different view on this.

The DES guidance places a lot of stress on what is an "incidental driver" rather than a person employed to drive.

If the teacher drives outside of school time and he receives no additional benefit I see no problem. If the teacher drives as an alternative to his contractual duties but only on condition he is still paid for the time taken out of his contractual duties, arguably he is being paid to drive.