Hypothetical Overtaking Question
Discussion
Probably been done before as it's quite a common situation, but I'm curious nontheless.
Single carriageway country A-road, 60mph limit. You're gently cruising along in your sports car when you approach a tail end of a convoy of three vehicles being headed by an artic. Two euroboxes are the sandwhich fillings between you and it.
You gingerly stick at the end of this convoy at an indicated 40mph, slowing down to about 20mph on the hilly bits, for a good distance. Safe overtaking opportunies come and go but said Euroboxes refuse to budge, no doubt partly in reason because they lack peripheral vision due to being stuck so close to leading artic (idjuts).
You, understandably, get infuriated. Road suddenly opens up and you see a clear quarter mile straight with no visible side roads and smooth tarmac. You boot it and attempt on taking on all three vehicles at once. You overtake the vehicle in front of you and by the time you approach Eurobox number 2 you have relatively considerable speed. Just as you approach said numpty decides he finally wants to overtake, and due to not noticing you for whatever reason, he surges out and knocks straight into you. You hit the hedge, he brakes hard and loses it and the vehicle who was once in front of you goes into him and totals both cars.
Whose fault was the accident?
Single carriageway country A-road, 60mph limit. You're gently cruising along in your sports car when you approach a tail end of a convoy of three vehicles being headed by an artic. Two euroboxes are the sandwhich fillings between you and it.
You gingerly stick at the end of this convoy at an indicated 40mph, slowing down to about 20mph on the hilly bits, for a good distance. Safe overtaking opportunies come and go but said Euroboxes refuse to budge, no doubt partly in reason because they lack peripheral vision due to being stuck so close to leading artic (idjuts).
You, understandably, get infuriated. Road suddenly opens up and you see a clear quarter mile straight with no visible side roads and smooth tarmac. You boot it and attempt on taking on all three vehicles at once. You overtake the vehicle in front of you and by the time you approach Eurobox number 2 you have relatively considerable speed. Just as you approach said numpty decides he finally wants to overtake, and due to not noticing you for whatever reason, he surges out and knocks straight into you. You hit the hedge, he brakes hard and loses it and the vehicle who was once in front of you goes into him and totals both cars.
Whose fault was the accident?
In order of blame based on information as written.
Firstly Eurobox 2 for not miror signal manouevre, but manouevre, mirr.. oh sh.....
Secondly Eurobox 1 partly to blame for not maintaining a proper following distance on Eurobox 2 amd being too close to stop when it all goes tits up.
Thirdly you only if you cannot be 110% sure that Eurobox 2 was not giving any signals that he was going to pull out. By signals I don't just mean those strange flashy orangey things that most people forget about but more subtle hints. Was he closing on the heavy? Was the gap between him and the white line closing? Plus did YOU give any signals that you were going to overtake? Indicators before you pulled out? Long hard flash of main beam followed by a couple of second wait just in case someone misinterpreted the flash?
Circumstances like this, and it is difficult to comment without having been there, are actually three overtakes and sometimes safer to be treated as such.
Having said all that I went past a convoy of 8 (eight) today in one shot. Brain and eyes nearly in overload, and I'm sure the main beam signals must have peed someone off. Bugger em if they want to trundle about at 40.
FiF
Firstly Eurobox 2 for not miror signal manouevre, but manouevre, mirr.. oh sh.....
Secondly Eurobox 1 partly to blame for not maintaining a proper following distance on Eurobox 2 amd being too close to stop when it all goes tits up.
Thirdly you only if you cannot be 110% sure that Eurobox 2 was not giving any signals that he was going to pull out. By signals I don't just mean those strange flashy orangey things that most people forget about but more subtle hints. Was he closing on the heavy? Was the gap between him and the white line closing? Plus did YOU give any signals that you were going to overtake? Indicators before you pulled out? Long hard flash of main beam followed by a couple of second wait just in case someone misinterpreted the flash?
Circumstances like this, and it is difficult to comment without having been there, are actually three overtakes and sometimes safer to be treated as such.
Having said all that I went past a convoy of 8 (eight) today in one shot. Brain and eyes nearly in overload, and I'm sure the main beam signals must have peed someone off. Bugger em if they want to trundle about at 40.
FiF
gfun said:Yes, I agree, but only to a certain extent.
you - always start an action by figuring out what may happen and then plan a escape.
if there isnt one dont do it
Every time we get in the car we take actions based on a pattern of predictability. If a car looks like it is going straight, then chances are it will continue to go straight. Bikers depend on this predictability for their lives.
If you are on a single carriageway road lined by hedges on both sides and a car is approaching in the opposite direction, you carry on. Now, you could have taken the action to stop there and then in the event he suddenly decided to lunge into your lane and straight into your nose, but you expect him to remain in his lane and so you carry on past him and you both go on your happy way.
If, in my scenario above, the Euroboxes show no intent whatsoever of overtaking, you have established a pattern and you act based on that pattern.
I feel driving is a balance between the need to get somewhere in a decent time and in managing risk. If you were to take your example, you would never overtake anyone on the motorway for fear of them surging out into you while you are beside them.
The question is: has predictable judgement been breached in the scenario above? Was it a stupid maneouvre?
By committing to overtake somebody who was waiting impatiently behind the truck, you have put yourself in a vulnerable position where their mistake may kill you. Right and wrong don't really matter in situations like this. I doubt it will be a great comfort to your next of kin to know that you were in the right.
-DeaDLocK- said:
If you were to take your example, you would never overtake anyone on the motorway for fear of them surging out into you while you are beside them.
Absolutely. Not a case of never overtake, but while overtaking do everything to minimise the risk that they will change lanes into you and have a plan of action if they do. In situations where you would have no escape options, it's best to hold back until more options become available.
-DeaDLocK- said:
I'd say the Artic, by the way.
Thanks !
I see this every day when I'm in a truck. Just so's you know, as far as I'm concerned I'd be your witness that the eurobox was driving like a tw@. These people are a menace. If you haven't got the gumption/ability to overtake, then drop back, and let somebody that has w
s Phil
Had a similar experience in Scotland some years ago in the Wedge. At the back of a group of four cars, slowed to c. 30 going through roadworks, on a single carriageway. After passing the works, the road widened and became unrestricted, and with a 1 mile straight with nothing coming and no turnings, I pulled out to get to the front. Passed the car immediately in front,(having indicated, checked behind etc.), get my nose alongside the rear wheels of the next car, which then decides to pull out without looking or indicating to overtake the car in front of him. Slight contact as I jump on the brakes and steer onto the soft grass verge bordering a loch - doing about 60 at the time. Fortunately he stopped, so I got his details - company car. Damage to mine was minor tp n/s front wing, cut tyre and shaken driver/passenger. Not ideal at the start of a 500 mile journey. After much chasing over several months, his insurer finally coughed up the entire cost of repairs, plus my uninsured losses. For some reason, he had initially failed to inform his company / insurer of the incident.
I now tend to leave my driving lights on all the time, so that people know I'm there. I might irritate them, but so what, at least they can see me.
The Highway Code specifically says that drivers of large or slow moving vehicles should not hold up a long queue of vehicles. The other problem is that, assuming the driver in front of you has seen you, he may interpret the fact that you are hanging back to get better visibility as a sign that you don't want to overtake. Short of constantly moving out to check the traffic flow (from a safe distance back) how will he know what your intentions eventually are ?
I now tend to leave my driving lights on all the time, so that people know I'm there. I might irritate them, but so what, at least they can see me.
The Highway Code specifically says that drivers of large or slow moving vehicles should not hold up a long queue of vehicles. The other problem is that, assuming the driver in front of you has seen you, he may interpret the fact that you are hanging back to get better visibility as a sign that you don't want to overtake. Short of constantly moving out to check the traffic flow (from a safe distance back) how will he know what your intentions eventually are ?
philthy said:
I'd say the Artic, by the way.
Thanks !
I see this every day when I'm in a truck. Just so's you know, as far as I'm concerned I'd be your witness that the eurobox was driving like a tw@. These people are a menace. If you haven't got the gumption/ability to overtake, then drop back, and let somebody that has w
Phil
Absolutely right. If we do nothing else, please could we have a little driver education campaign that addresses this issue.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Had this happen to me on Friday, I was at the back of a group of four trundleing cars doing 40 along a NSL, I pulled out to overtake with speed increasing rapidly via twin turbos, then the car directly infront of me pulls straight out into my front near side. She didn't even look.
I avoided a collision with maximum braking (ABS was pulsating) and swerving to my right hugging the curb.
I always try to make allowances for other drivers mistakes because I drive a speedy machine and half expect them not to see me or know how quickly I can accelerate, but to pull out without looking is sheer incompetence.
I would say in theory it's deffinately the incompetent drivers fault for not knowing whats behind them and not using their mirrors to pull out.
But, as Streaky said, in practice if you're overtaking at over the speed limit I would think the law and insurance companys would try to put the blame on you.
So I guess you have to be adamant you weren't doing over 60.
I avoided a collision with maximum braking (ABS was pulsating) and swerving to my right hugging the curb.
I always try to make allowances for other drivers mistakes because I drive a speedy machine and half expect them not to see me or know how quickly I can accelerate, but to pull out without looking is sheer incompetence.
I would say in theory it's deffinately the incompetent drivers fault for not knowing whats behind them and not using their mirrors to pull out.
But, as Streaky said, in practice if you're overtaking at over the speed limit I would think the law and insurance companys would try to put the blame on you.
So I guess you have to be adamant you weren't doing over 60.
In the original post, if there were four vehicles to overtake then the mistake was in failing to consider that as four seperate operations.
The point to go for the maximum speed differential to "nail" the leading lorry is when you pass his tailboard, not when you pull out to pass the three cars behind him.
If you plan to execute each overtake with separate observation of the vehicle in question and a sensible speed differential, then the odds of any of them causing you a major problem if he pulls out are massively reduced.
If this means you don't now have space to get past the whole batch in one go then you either need to be sure you can slot into one of the gaps, or the maneuvre isn't "on" and you need to look for a better opportunity.
(That said, the ensuing collision remains the responsibility of the numpty that pulled out, but as stated above that fact will be of little comfort to your next of kin!)
The point to go for the maximum speed differential to "nail" the leading lorry is when you pass his tailboard, not when you pull out to pass the three cars behind him.
If you plan to execute each overtake with separate observation of the vehicle in question and a sensible speed differential, then the odds of any of them causing you a major problem if he pulls out are massively reduced.
If this means you don't now have space to get past the whole batch in one go then you either need to be sure you can slot into one of the gaps, or the maneuvre isn't "on" and you need to look for a better opportunity.
(That said, the ensuing collision remains the responsibility of the numpty that pulled out, but as stated above that fact will be of little comfort to your next of kin!)
BlackStuff said:Many times, the block of cars are following the lorry so closely that there is little option when overtaking but to treat the entire stream as one vehicle and execute a single overtake - Streaky
In the original post, if there were four vehicles to overtake then the mistake was in failing to consider that as four seperate operations.
streaky said:
BlackStuff said:
In the original post, if there were four vehicles to overtake then the mistake was in failing to consider that as four seperate operations.
Many times, the block of cars are following the lorry so closely that there is little option when overtaking but to treat the entire stream as one vehicle and execute a single overtake - Streaky
You might have to treat it as a single manoeuvre, but treating it as a single vehicle is where the problem arises.
It isn't a single vehicle, as a single vehicle doesn't part in the middle and suddenly block both lanes!
As I said in my last email, if the cars are all tailgating such that no gap is available to pull into, that removes one escape option, so you should be more circumspect about the whole thing, not just nail it and hope!
If you keep the speed differential reasonable as you pass each vehicle, and observe and evaluate each one separately as you approach and pass it, then you are far less likely to get taken unawares by an unobservant numpty popping out in front of you. Indeed, you can even open up a new opportunity of pulling into the gap he leaves to ensure your own safety, which is a vastly superior outcome to simply ploughing into him! (Remembering of course to then open out a new gap for him to come back into, when he realises that his ill-planned lunge isn't "on" after all).
Of course, restraining your acceleration to manage the other vehicles means the overall manoeuvre will require more space, but this is exactly what you need to consider when evaluating whether the move is on in the first place.
The other possibility is simply to stay alert to the car in front of you lazily allowing a suitable gap to emerge in front of him and responding quickly to overtake and make use of it.
>> Edited by BlackStuff on Monday 20th June 10:53
blueyes said:The trouble is that a "quick flash of full beam" can equally be interpreted as 'I am here - don't pull out' and also 'I am flashing you to let you know you can pull out'. Not really the sort of ambiguity you want to create.
I treat everybody else on the road as a total idiot so I always give a quick flash of full beam when overtaking on a normal road.
blueyes said:
I treat everybody else on the road as a total idiot so I always give a quick flash of full beam when overtaking on a normal road.
Yep, have started doing just that myself, after a couple of near-misses just as described in post #1 - basically I assume that 1/2 of all road users don't use their mirrors anymore, so I tend to draw attention to myself before it becomes an issue.
havoc said:
blueyes said:
I treat everybody else on the road as a total idiot so I always give a quick flash of full beam when overtaking on a normal road.
Yep, have started doing just that myself, after a couple of near-misses just as described in post #1 - basically I assume that 1/2 of all road users don't use their mirrors anymore, so I tend to draw attention to myself before it becomes an issue.
A bit of a double-edged sword though, don't you think?
Especially in circumstances like the one in this thread, a lot of road users these days seem to wrongly consider that anyone overtaking is somehow pushing into or jumping a "queue". Thus if you alert them to your intent to overtake you also need to be alert to the possibility that they will either deliberately close the gap you were intending to overtake into, or in extreme cases deliberately pull out to block you completely. I've witnessed both, and even had passengers who've said to me "don't let him back in!" when someone has (quite legitimately) overtaken me.
And of course there is also the opportunity that they will read a flash as an invitation to pull out, so on balance I'd be very cautious about signalling my intentions to the "overtakee" these days, and would only do so if I felt there was a specific need to do so. And right now I can't think of an example of such a situation!
>> Edited by BlackStuff on Monday 20th June 11:18
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