Fault question.
Discussion
This hasnt happened but was the hypothetical topic of a conversation today and wondered if anyone actually knew.
If a motorbike is filtering as they do constantly around London, and suddenly a car changes lanes and hits them who is at fault?
We thought that it was probably 50/50 because technically the bike shouldny be between lanes and the car shouldnt drive into motor bikes.
If a motorbike is filtering as they do constantly around London, and suddenly a car changes lanes and hits them who is at fault?
We thought that it was probably 50/50 because technically the bike shouldny be between lanes and the car shouldnt drive into motor bikes.
There is no precedent on this type of matter, so don't be the one to help set it!! Basically no case law exists (to my knowledge), that offers exacting guidance as to how a case such as this might be settled.
The general rules will apply here and you as the motorcyclist have the stronger case. Provided that you are overtaking/undertaking at a reasonable speed and exercising caution and acting upon and heeding signals by the other road users. If there is no indication by the driver of his/her intent to change lanes and hence no warning, then you should be found to be innocent and should get it settled 100% in your favour. If you choose to ignore a signal then you could ppssibly be held at fault.
Basically, there is no correct answer to this situation and could well depend on the judge on the day.
The general rules will apply here and you as the motorcyclist have the stronger case. Provided that you are overtaking/undertaking at a reasonable speed and exercising caution and acting upon and heeding signals by the other road users. If there is no indication by the driver of his/her intent to change lanes and hence no warning, then you should be found to be innocent and should get it settled 100% in your favour. If you choose to ignore a signal then you could ppssibly be held at fault.
Basically, there is no correct answer to this situation and could well depend on the judge on the day.
Ihave known several people who have been involved in this sort of accident. In each case the majority of fault has been found to lie with the car driver - you should check that you are not going to be brought into conflict with another vehicle before changing direction.
However, as a biker myself I would say that if you find yourself regularly having narrow misses, you need to have a good think about your riding style. You are the one who will get hurt if a collision takes place - ride defensively. You must be prepared to stop. A good tip - look at the front wheels of every car as you pass - if they are pointed into the next lane there is a good chance that the car will make a sudden manoevre. If you can't react in time, you are travelling too quickly for the conditions.
However, as a biker myself I would say that if you find yourself regularly having narrow misses, you need to have a good think about your riding style. You are the one who will get hurt if a collision takes place - ride defensively. You must be prepared to stop. A good tip - look at the front wheels of every car as you pass - if they are pointed into the next lane there is a good chance that the car will make a sudden manoevre. If you can't react in time, you are travelling too quickly for the conditions.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Ihave known several people who have been involved in this sort of accident. In each case the majority of fault has been found to lie with the car driver - you should check that you are not going to be brought into conflict with another vehicle before changing direction.
However, as a biker myself I would say that if you find yourself regularly having narrow misses, you need to have a good think about your riding style. You are the one who will get hurt if a collision takes place - ride defensively. You must be prepared to stop. A good tip - look at the front wheels of every car as you pass - if they are pointed into the next lane there is a good chance that the car will make a sudden manoevre. If you can't react in time, you are travelling too quickly for the conditions.
Yes I agree with you. Unfortunately when you ride 40 miles each way into central London every day however careful you are you have near misses ( and bad crashes I recently discovered). Im talking about people who instantaneously decide to change lanes whilts youre alongside them of which there are a surprising number!
My hypothetical take on it is that in a multi-laned carriageway a motor vehicle would expect to have the lateral rights to it's lane, ie it should be able to move laterally within it's lane (or at least to within a foot of the lane markings) without necessitating a mirror check. If a manoeuvre outside this boundary occurs without an adequate check, then the car driver has obvious liabilities.
If the biker overtakes within this 'lateral zone' then he has to accept blame.
If a car driver has the opportunity to move from one lane to another, and has seen a gap which he believes is free of traffic (although he has not seen the bike), then surely by definition the bike at that point would not be filtering, and would be in the lane which the car wants to enter. In these cirumstances the car driver is at fault.
Usually these kind of RTCs are never cut and dried, and the application of the COAST model would usually identify faults in both drivers' behaviours.
If the biker overtakes within this 'lateral zone' then he has to accept blame.
If a car driver has the opportunity to move from one lane to another, and has seen a gap which he believes is free of traffic (although he has not seen the bike), then surely by definition the bike at that point would not be filtering, and would be in the lane which the car wants to enter. In these cirumstances the car driver is at fault.
Usually these kind of RTCs are never cut and dried, and the application of the COAST model would usually identify faults in both drivers' behaviours.
blindswelledrat said:
Yes I agree with you. Unfortunately when you ride 40 miles each way into central London every day however careful you are you have near misses ( and bad crashes I recently discovered). Im talking about people who instantaneously decide to change lanes whilts youre alongside them of which there are a surprising number!
I used to commute in by bike from High Wycombe to Covent Garden every morning. I know how appalling the standard of driving is, but you must find a way of mitigating against the potential for disaster. Don't put yourself in a vulnerable situation, without an instant fail-safe escape route. Don't filter quickly in stationery traffic. Don't filter at more than a few mph more than slow moving traffic. Don't filter at all in medium or high speed traffic. You must allow sufficient contingency to be able to manoevre out of trouble, or brake before it occurs. Otherwise you are going to end up a messy statistic.
I had an accident while filtering - front seat passenger in car in right hand lane opened the door and hit me with it as I passed.
TrafPol told the driver that she should have expected bikes to be filtering and that she was totally at fault. The cops also asked me if I wanted her charged with careless driving!
Not exactly the same scenario as you describe, but it does show that bikes aren't automatically at fault when filtering. Incident was in Scotland.
TrafPol told the driver that she should have expected bikes to be filtering and that she was totally at fault. The cops also asked me if I wanted her charged with careless driving!
Not exactly the same scenario as you describe, but it does show that bikes aren't automatically at fault when filtering. Incident was in Scotland.
MR2Mike said:
I though filtering was an "at own risk" manouver like overtaking?
It is - as is any legal manouvre but any road user should use "due care & attention". Filtering is legal and is taught as part of m/cycle training - you are expected to make good progress whilst riding which would include filtering where both appropriate and safe to do so.
The highway code does advise that you should pass vehicles on the right unless you are moving in queues of congested traffic.
Bike who filter between lanes of traffic are making multiple overtakes in contravention of the Highway Code. Obviously not illegal, but in the event of accident, might be used to indicate careless driving.
Given that it is an overtake that might not be expected by the slow moving traffic, if you don't move slowly enough to check whether each vehicle may not have seen you and might pull out then you may well be involved in a near miss or accident.
Personally - I drive a lot in slow moving traffic in London and regularly see bike filtering well and badly. Those who do it well potter through slow moving traffic, making themselves loud, brighly lit, and loiter in gaps. Those who don't zoom down the middle, giving few people the chance to recognise that they are there.
I pay attention to bikers who are filtering to my right more than those to my left. I will always make room for a bike if I can (I mean really, it's hardly going to hold me up, is it?), but I've noticed before now that making room on my right has sometimes prevented progress on my left.
As regarding the incident opening the door, it is a specific offence for the driver to cause or allow a door to be opened in way which obstructs or endangers traffic, which will have given the careless charge.
HighwayCode139 said:
# only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
# stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left
Bike who filter between lanes of traffic are making multiple overtakes in contravention of the Highway Code. Obviously not illegal, but in the event of accident, might be used to indicate careless driving.
Given that it is an overtake that might not be expected by the slow moving traffic, if you don't move slowly enough to check whether each vehicle may not have seen you and might pull out then you may well be involved in a near miss or accident.
Personally - I drive a lot in slow moving traffic in London and regularly see bike filtering well and badly. Those who do it well potter through slow moving traffic, making themselves loud, brighly lit, and loiter in gaps. Those who don't zoom down the middle, giving few people the chance to recognise that they are there.
I pay attention to bikers who are filtering to my right more than those to my left. I will always make room for a bike if I can (I mean really, it's hardly going to hold me up, is it?), but I've noticed before now that making room on my right has sometimes prevented progress on my left.
As regarding the incident opening the door, it is a specific offence for the driver to cause or allow a door to be opened in way which obstructs or endangers traffic, which will have given the careless charge.
7db said:
Personally - I drive a lot in slow moving traffic in London and regularly see bike filtering well and badly. Those who do it well potter through slow moving traffic, making themselves loud, brighly lit, and loiter in gaps. Those who don't zoom down the middle, giving few people the chance to recognise that they are there.
I pay attention to bikers who are filtering to my right more than those to my left. I will always make room for a bike if I can (I mean really, it's hardly going to hold me up, is it?), but I've noticed before now that making room on my right has sometimes prevented progress on my left.
I hate driving in the Metrollopes for exactly the same reason.
Bikes filtering at either side of you at (yourspeed)+20moh + a bit more in many cases.
The ones that really worry me are those who filter at high speed whilst not having a straight path but wiggle through by a series of weight shifts to adjust the line. Mad!
Flat in Fifth said:
The ones that really worry me are those who filter at high speed whilst not having a straight path but wiggle through by a series of weight shifts to adjust the line. Mad!
Travelling on a dual carriageway in the morning, stop/start up to 20mph-ish, and quite a lot of m/cs filter between the lanes (lots of room) at traffic+10mph or so. Lastweek one went past doing about 70. Nutter.
I do change lanes too (there are very definite patterns where one lane moves a lot more than the other) but make explicit checks for filtering bikers when doing so.
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