Drunk in charge law & definition
Discussion
A friend of mine is going out to a pub in the middle of nowhere and will drink more than the legal limit to permit him to drive. No place to stay, no chane of a taxi. He intends to sleep in the car (in the back). We have heard and seen threads on keys in ignition (obviously a no brainer), however, what if they were in the car, or his pocket, or indeed in the pub, and the car in the carpark - anyone able to provide definitive details on the law or previous similar cases.
Even being sat in the back seat of the car with the keys in his pocket risks prosecution (You don't actually have to have the engine running to technically be in charge of the vehicle - just being in it with the means to start is enough).
Now your friend sat in the vehicle, with the keys in the Pub - not sure about that......
especially if the keys are being held by somebody else who is sober (Landlord for example).
Now your friend sat in the vehicle, with the keys in the Pub - not sure about that......
especially if the keys are being held by somebody else who is sober (Landlord for example).
hedders said:
Supposing you were sitting in a passenger seat and are waiting for someone (who may be getting a takeaway or whatever) to drive the car home. How would that be classed.
If you had the keys? No defense there i don't think.
Actually happened to me. I'd let myself in my car while my sister (designated driver) was saying goodbye to some bloke (not the sort of thing I want to see).
I'm in the passanger seat. My mate is in the back scoffing a kebab. Coppers started the questioning with "is this your car sir".
"Yes occifer" was not the correct answer.
Fortunately, my sis turned up about 4 minutes later and they saw sense.
I'd not realised how close a squeek that was.
I've seen threads on this in other forums, including one which has a high proportion of police, magistrates, and other legal types as members. IIRC the gist of the advice was something like this:-
Even if the driver is in the back seat of the car, and even though he has no intention of driving, he is still guilty of being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle in a public place if he has the keys.
Putting the keys out of reach (posting them through the pub's letterbox was suggested) would probably be OK. Also, if the pub car park has some sort of gate or barrier which is regularly closed outside of licensing hours, it could be argued that the car park is then not a public place.
Even if the driver is in the back seat of the car, and even though he has no intention of driving, he is still guilty of being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle in a public place if he has the keys.
Putting the keys out of reach (posting them through the pub's letterbox was suggested) would probably be OK. Also, if the pub car park has some sort of gate or barrier which is regularly closed outside of licensing hours, it could be argued that the car park is then not a public place.
have a look here...
www.traffic-answers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2062.0
Or this one was quite unbelievable
www.traffic-answers.com/forum/index.php?topic=1949.0
Drunk in charge is a discretionary ban not automatic one, but an obligatory 10 points.
They only stay on for 11 years for the driving/attempting to drive offences, it's 4 years for drunk in charge
Mr F
>> Edited by Mr Freefall on Wednesday 5th October 13:45
www.traffic-answers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2062.0
Or this one was quite unbelievable
www.traffic-answers.com/forum/index.php?topic=1949.0
Drunk in charge is a discretionary ban not automatic one, but an obligatory 10 points.
They only stay on for 11 years for the driving/attempting to drive offences, it's 4 years for drunk in charge
Mr F
>> Edited by Mr Freefall on Wednesday 5th October 13:45
humpbackmaniac said:
So Camper vans are a bad idea then? How does that work?
A very good question
I was watching a program on TV yesterday where a couple had their VW camper van refurbished, and the woman was always saying how she enjoys a few gins. Hopefully her husband remains sober ? and if not, then how do they get away with this?
This is one of those somewhat confusing incidents with no set outcome from the start as it will depend of many variable factors, some of which have been mentioned.
Pub car park can be a road/public place for offence to take part. There again it can not be a road/ public place if parking only allowed during licensing hours after this prohibited ( Sandy v Morris [1974] )
There appears to be no simple test for i/charge but a leading authority is DPP v Watkins [1989] on tests which should be imposed to detremine if a person is i/c.
Held if defendant is OWNER or in lawful possession or has recently driven it he is ON THE FACE OF IT i/c unless he has put the vehicle in someone elses charge. Where the person is not the owner, in lawful possession or has not recently driven need to establish whether person assumed charge of vehicle. (Consider drunk driver giving keys to Landlord who is also drunk?),
The following points also relevant:
whether and where he was in the vehicle,
whether he was in possession of an ignition key suitable for the vehicle,
whether there is evidence indicating an intention to take or assert control of the vehicle by driving or otherwise,
whether anyone else was in, at or near the vehicle and if so, the particulars.
Div Court re- affirmed i/c would always be a question of fact and degree.
If Plod wasn't all all happy with the situation I would suspect that he would start the blow procedure and arrest on the oncome.
Statutory defence exists to prove at the time alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle o.p.l. A matter for the bench to make a decision.
Not wishing to be sanctimonious but alcohol/drugs are bad karma where motor vehicles are concerned and to be absolutely safe one should make a complete separation between the two.
dvd
Pub car park can be a road/public place for offence to take part. There again it can not be a road/ public place if parking only allowed during licensing hours after this prohibited ( Sandy v Morris [1974] )
There appears to be no simple test for i/charge but a leading authority is DPP v Watkins [1989] on tests which should be imposed to detremine if a person is i/c.
Held if defendant is OWNER or in lawful possession or has recently driven it he is ON THE FACE OF IT i/c unless he has put the vehicle in someone elses charge. Where the person is not the owner, in lawful possession or has not recently driven need to establish whether person assumed charge of vehicle. (Consider drunk driver giving keys to Landlord who is also drunk?),
The following points also relevant:
whether and where he was in the vehicle,
whether he was in possession of an ignition key suitable for the vehicle,
whether there is evidence indicating an intention to take or assert control of the vehicle by driving or otherwise,
whether anyone else was in, at or near the vehicle and if so, the particulars.
Div Court re- affirmed i/c would always be a question of fact and degree.
If Plod wasn't all all happy with the situation I would suspect that he would start the blow procedure and arrest on the oncome.
Statutory defence exists to prove at the time alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle o.p.l. A matter for the bench to make a decision.
Not wishing to be sanctimonious but alcohol/drugs are bad karma where motor vehicles are concerned and to be absolutely safe one should make a complete separation between the two.
dvd
esselte said:
How are you fixed if you are in a caravan(yeuch!)that is still hitched up to your car in a layby and you are slightly the worse for wear?Is there a chance of drunk in charge with that one?
Legally you can be done for drunk in charge if your car is outside your house and you go outside to get something from it when drunk so i would imagine you can also be done in your scenario.
Dwight VanDriver said:
...
Not wishing to be sanctimonious but alcohol/drugs are bad karma where motor vehicles are concerned and to be absolutely safe one should make a complete separation between the two.
dvd
DVD spectacular knowledge as ever, but how do you get your beer home from Sainsburys?
7db said:
...
Not wishing to be sanctimonious but alcohol/drugs are bad karma where motor vehicles are concerned and to be absolutely safe one should make a complete separation between the two.
dvd
DVD spectacular knowledge as ever, but how do you get your beer home from Sainsburys?
IIRC in France there is a limit to the amount of booze you can bring home in your car from the supermarket (not that anyone pays any attention)
hedders said:
How are you fixed if you are in a caravan(yeuch!)that is still hitched up to your car in a layby and you are slightly the worse for wear?Is there a chance of drunk in charge with that one?
Legally you can be done for drunk in charge if your car is outside your house and you go outside to get something from it when drunk so i would imagine you can also be done in your scenario.
Do these laws apply off road? Can you legally drive on your own property pissed as a fart?
RTA 88 Section 5
If a person is IN CHARGE
of a MOTOR VEHICLE
on A ROAD OR OTHER PUBLIC PLACE
after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty
OF AN OFFENCE
Road part is simple it's the public place you have to watch.
dvd
If a person is IN CHARGE
of a MOTOR VEHICLE
on A ROAD OR OTHER PUBLIC PLACE
after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty
OF AN OFFENCE
Road part is simple it's the public place you have to watch.
dvd
When I were a lad, I used to sleep in my car in the pub car park every Friday night - I got questioned by the local BiB a few times, but I always used to leave my keys in the pub safe, and the BiB got to know that I would never drive home, so I didn't have an issue.
Nowadays I don't think I would risk it - most BiB seem to have any common sense drilled out of them at training college, and would probably try and do me anyway.
Nowadays I don't think I would risk it - most BiB seem to have any common sense drilled out of them at training college, and would probably try and do me anyway.
In about '88 A mate and I got drunk in his car outside my house cos we could not smoke in the house.
At some point we both fell asleep (with the engine running as it was cold) and a few hours later a neighbour called the cops because of the noise of the idling engine.
The cops came and woke us both up and questioned us about what we were doing, when they discovered we were outside my house they just told us to go inside and not to be so silly in the future!
I can't see that happening now...
At some point we both fell asleep (with the engine running as it was cold) and a few hours later a neighbour called the cops because of the noise of the idling engine.
The cops came and woke us both up and questioned us about what we were doing, when they discovered we were outside my house they just told us to go inside and not to be so silly in the future!
I can't see that happening now...
hedders said:
In about '88 A mate and I got drunk in his car outside my house cos we could not smoke in the house.
At some point we both fell asleep (with the engine running as it was cold) and a few hours later a neighbour called the cops because of the noise of the idling engine.
The cops came and woke us both up and questioned us about what we were doing, when they discovered we were outside my house they just told us to go inside and not to be so silly in the future!
I can't see that happening now...
Yes well these days they'd doubtless have to fill in several forms in multuplicate, give you a receipt for your time, and then answer to some blue-serged neo-fascist as to why they didn't throw the book at you. Understandably rather than go through all that for nothing, these days they just book you anyway - stupid and disproportionate, but quite understandable really.
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