Anyone tried PACE statement in Bedfordshire?
Discussion
Just received a nice little new year present from Bedfordshire Constabulary in the form of a NIP. December 23rd, 10.10 in the morning, northbound A1, 50 in a 40! 40 mph on the A1 but only because it was at Tempsford on the approach to the roadworks at the Black Cat roundabout. The fact that the workmen had knocked off for Christmas and all the cones were dumped on the central reservation seems to have little relevance. I lifted off and was slowing as I entered the restriction but at the time I saw the scamera van my GPS was reading 53. A quick stab on the brakes got it down to 41 but I obviously wasn't quick enough.
Now, for the last 11 months I've had a clean licence so I could just accept the points and pay the £60 tax, but I feel in an argumentative mood. Anyone tried the PACE statement route in Bedfordshire and, if so, what was the outcome? Is there also any mileage in arguing that the temporary limit is there because of the roadworks but there weren't any at the time so the limit was unnecessary?
Now, for the last 11 months I've had a clean licence so I could just accept the points and pay the £60 tax, but I feel in an argumentative mood. Anyone tried the PACE statement route in Bedfordshire and, if so, what was the outcome? Is there also any mileage in arguing that the temporary limit is there because of the roadworks but there weren't any at the time so the limit was unnecessary?
Do a search in this forum as there was a similiar discussion about 2 weeks ago about the validity of lowered speed limits on roadworks - even though there was no work in progress and all the cones were shunted off to the hard shoulder.
I think the bottom line was that the limit was still in force - but if you were pulled by the BiB then common sense may prevail. Not much help to you I know.
K
I think the bottom line was that the limit was still in force - but if you were pulled by the BiB then common sense may prevail. Not much help to you I know.
K
write the following 100 times please: I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
Is that enough??
I must admit the worrying thing is that I instinctively stabbed at the brake pedal the moment I saw the van. What I didn't do was check my mirrors first to make sure nobody else was behind me at the time. They must have made a fortune that morning. Northbound A1 full of people going away for Christmas, speed limit signs because of obviously non-existant roadworks. Only one yellow jacket in the van though.....
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
I must religously stare at my speedo at all times.
Is that enough??
I must admit the worrying thing is that I instinctively stabbed at the brake pedal the moment I saw the van. What I didn't do was check my mirrors first to make sure nobody else was behind me at the time. They must have made a fortune that morning. Northbound A1 full of people going away for Christmas, speed limit signs because of obviously non-existant roadworks. Only one yellow jacket in the van though.....
I tried PACE for Greater Manchester. They just ignored it and have sent two follow up letters, firstly giving me another 28 days and the most recent one was a last chance whilst court papers were being prepared. Stuff em i reckon, i'll pay the courts but not some scamera partnership.
raja said:
I tried PACE for Greater Manchester. They just ignored it and have sent two follow up letters, firstly giving me another 28 days and the most recent one was a last chance whilst court papers were being prepared. Stuff em i reckon, i'll pay the courts but not some scamera partnership.
The best thing that can happen (apart from hearing nowt more), is that they issue a summons for S172 'Failure to furnish driver details'. A prosecution for S172 is bound to fail after submitting a PACE witness statement..
>> Edited by SS2. on Friday 30th December 22:22
There's a good chance of the video if it was the chap I spoke to a while back. I went back for a chat after having to plough the tarmac with the nose of the car when i saw him, he was targeting anyone he felt was doing over 50, and if he got a 'speeder' he would keep the camera trained on them to ensure facial evidence of the driver. In his opinion he was getting about 40% of people over the limit with this method - the rest getting away by being able to slow by the time he manage to re-target the camera.
The good news for me was that after 21 days no NIP (day 14 was halfway through a US business trip), bad news - I got pulled for 92 in a 65 over there - arse
I had heard Bed's where looking to offer words of advise on a roadside pull in preference to a ticket for a low infringement, so it may be worth asking about the 'education' courses for a scamera ticket.
I have to admit that the start of that 40 limit and the location of the van is total bollox in regards to the road works, if it started and was sighted after the filling station it would be far more effective. But then again you couldn't put the van just around a sweeping left hand bend to hide on the inside.
The good news for me was that after 21 days no NIP (day 14 was halfway through a US business trip), bad news - I got pulled for 92 in a 65 over there - arse
I had heard Bed's where looking to offer words of advise on a roadside pull in preference to a ticket for a low infringement, so it may be worth asking about the 'education' courses for a scamera ticket.
I have to admit that the start of that 40 limit and the location of the van is total bollox in regards to the road works, if it started and was sighted after the filling station it would be far more effective. But then again you couldn't put the van just around a sweeping left hand bend to hide on the inside.
I am sure we would all stare religiously at our speedometers, but in my case it's difficult to get on my knees and still operate the pedals and steering wheel.
Poor design by TVR, I know, but a different era (BC - Before Cameras!).
Getting back up off my knees is an equally difficult matter but one that owes more to the ageing process than car design!
For those of another religious persuasion, total prostration in the direction of the birthplace of your God, Prophet or Saviour might necessitate radical repositioning of the speedometer.
Possibly a "Head-Down Display" is required.
Mind you, observation suggests that a goodly number of motorists have their heads up their backsides most of the time, so their "search for enlightenment" is clearly starting with the "inner self".
Having said that, SWMBO has related the tale of one of the nuns at her convent school who used to cross herself and pray whilst driving ... through red lights! Fortunately, (her) God protected her and the girls in her Austin A30. There might be something in it!
Streaky
Poor design by TVR, I know, but a different era (BC - Before Cameras!).
Getting back up off my knees is an equally difficult matter but one that owes more to the ageing process than car design!
For those of another religious persuasion, total prostration in the direction of the birthplace of your God, Prophet or Saviour might necessitate radical repositioning of the speedometer.
Possibly a "Head-Down Display" is required.
Mind you, observation suggests that a goodly number of motorists have their heads up their backsides most of the time, so their "search for enlightenment" is clearly starting with the "inner self".
Having said that, SWMBO has related the tale of one of the nuns at her convent school who used to cross herself and pray whilst driving ... through red lights! Fortunately, (her) God protected her and the girls in her Austin A30. There might be something in it!
Streaky
Gilbertd.
If it is road works check with the Local Authority of the area to ensure that a Temporary Traffic Order has been made and if possible view it. It will mention the length of road and speed limit. Check it carefully for all its details and what is said.
There was a case last year at Luton where road works were completed and all that was left was the speed restriction signs and a driver was reported.
Used to get off was the following argument from Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002:
Reg 4.
"road works" means works for the improvement, alteration or maintenance of a road and includes, in relation to England and Wales, street works as defined by section 48(3) of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991
Reg 5. - (1) In these Regulations "speed limit" means a maximum or minimum limit of speed on the driving of vehicles on a road -
(a) imposed by an order under section 14 of the 1984 Act (temporary prohibition or restriction of traffic on roads);
Restrictions on the placing of temporary signs
Direction 36. The signs shown in Schedule 12, other than in diagrams 7014, 7019, 7020, 7032 and 7103, may be placed only in connection with the execution of works on or near a road or a temporary obstruction thereon, and any such sign so placed and any other sign shown in a diagram in Schedules 1 to 11(Diagram 670 Speed limit sign is in this) so placed shall not be retained on or near the road after the completion of the works OR THE REMOVAL OF THE OBSTRUCTION, as the case may be.
www.tinyurl.com/b9kq
Regulations first section
Sign Diagrams
Directions after.
So they remove the cones etc then they should also remove the speed limit signs. No signs no limit.
If you are a resident of Bedfordshire your principle newspaper for that area may well have the Court report in its archives or failing that local Solicitor may have made a note of that case.
Grounds to be considered but I would suspect your going to have to fight it at the Mags Court.
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 31st December 08:32
If it is road works check with the Local Authority of the area to ensure that a Temporary Traffic Order has been made and if possible view it. It will mention the length of road and speed limit. Check it carefully for all its details and what is said.
There was a case last year at Luton where road works were completed and all that was left was the speed restriction signs and a driver was reported.
Used to get off was the following argument from Traffic Signs and General Directions 2002:
Reg 4.
"road works" means works for the improvement, alteration or maintenance of a road and includes, in relation to England and Wales, street works as defined by section 48(3) of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991
Reg 5. - (1) In these Regulations "speed limit" means a maximum or minimum limit of speed on the driving of vehicles on a road -
(a) imposed by an order under section 14 of the 1984 Act (temporary prohibition or restriction of traffic on roads);
Restrictions on the placing of temporary signs
Direction 36. The signs shown in Schedule 12, other than in diagrams 7014, 7019, 7020, 7032 and 7103, may be placed only in connection with the execution of works on or near a road or a temporary obstruction thereon, and any such sign so placed and any other sign shown in a diagram in Schedules 1 to 11(Diagram 670 Speed limit sign is in this) so placed shall not be retained on or near the road after the completion of the works OR THE REMOVAL OF THE OBSTRUCTION, as the case may be.
www.tinyurl.com/b9kq
Regulations first section
Sign Diagrams
Directions after.
So they remove the cones etc then they should also remove the speed limit signs. No signs no limit.
If you are a resident of Bedfordshire your principle newspaper for that area may well have the Court report in its archives or failing that local Solicitor may have made a note of that case.
Grounds to be considered but I would suspect your going to have to fight it at the Mags Court.
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Saturday 31st December 08:32
deva link said:
The good news for me was that after 21 days no NIP (day 14 was halfway through a US business trip), bad news - I got pulled for 92 in a 65 over there - arse
So how much did that cost?
The enormous sum of $146 (about £85) plus six points (non-transferable to the UK) on my driving record for that state only which last for 1 YEAR, I did consider asking about a calibration certificate but he may have offered me one for his holstered beastie instead (and no - I don't mean his knob)
. Happy New Year to All
gilbertd said:
Just received a nice little new year present from Bedfordshire Constabulary in the form of a NIP. December 23rd, 10.10 in the morning, northbound A1, 50 in a 40! 40 mph on the A1 but only because it was at Tempsford on the approach to the roadworks at the Black Cat roundabout. The fact that the workmen had knocked off for Christmas and all the cones were dumped on the central reservation seems to have little relevance. I lifted off and was slowing as I entered the restriction but at the time I saw the scamera van my GPS was reading 53. A quick stab on the brakes got it down to 41 but I obviously wasn't quick enough.
I know that stretch quite well.
The 40 mph limit south of the Black Cat roundabout has been there for some time (a couple of years at least) This had nothing to do with the road works. It was set up to slow people down as they approach the double bend over the river Ouse. I have to admit 40 is a bit over the top. 50 would have been more sensible. All the cars I see do a lot more than that.
I have never seen a scamera there in all the times I have passed there! Sods law for you I'm afraid!
I think the original 40 there was because a large truck hit the bridge. Those are very demanding bends, but 40 is, maybe, too low a limit. The 40 was only intended to apply whilst they fixed the bridge, but now they are doing the roadworks at the black cat roundabout, a few hundred yards further on, it has remained for those roadworks, maybe under a different speed restriction order. That's worth checking.
The case at Luton was that if the roadworks are complete, or the obstruction caused by the roadworks ceases to exist, then the limit is invalid. The case in question involved the link road from the Airport to Junction 10A of the M1. The road works were complete, the cones were moved to the roadside prior to collection, but the limit was still being applied. The driver in question did indeed win his case and, I believe, was awarded costs. It was scamming at it most definitive.
If the cones were cleared away and roadworks temporily suspended the 'Luton Case' could well apply as if no-one is working and the carriageways have been cleared of obstruction, then the limit, it would seem, is also suspended until work re-starts.
Since it's the same outfit who lost at Luton it could well be worth a real go at a defence - they won't want to lose twice.
The case at Luton was that if the roadworks are complete, or the obstruction caused by the roadworks ceases to exist, then the limit is invalid. The case in question involved the link road from the Airport to Junction 10A of the M1. The road works were complete, the cones were moved to the roadside prior to collection, but the limit was still being applied. The driver in question did indeed win his case and, I believe, was awarded costs. It was scamming at it most definitive.
If the cones were cleared away and roadworks temporily suspended the 'Luton Case' could well apply as if no-one is working and the carriageways have been cleared of obstruction, then the limit, it would seem, is also suspended until work re-starts.
Since it's the same outfit who lost at Luton it could well be worth a real go at a defence - they won't want to lose twice.
I've spent a lot of time researching the various Temporary restriction orders. It appears that there were two. The first, Order 2005/1591, was to take account the work at the Black Cat roundabout with a restriction that commenced just before the Tempsford river bridge. Following the truck that fell over, they then needed to rebuild the parapet of the bridge which would necessitate lane closures. A further order was published in June 2005 to take account of this with a restriction commencing 660m to the south of the Tempsford footbridge but continuing to beyond the Black Cat roundabout. This order then allowed for both sets of work and the original order was revoked. The work on the bridge was completed in August but the cones have been left on the central reservation and never collected.
If the bridge work was the only work that this order was there for, then the restriction would not be valid as the work has been completed. However, the fact that the restriction must be at least 2 miles long and the only work is in the last 200m means that they can honestly state that it hasn't been completed. Consequently, ideal pickings for the scamerati as I, along with probably 90% of the other drivers that use that bit of road, know that when the restriction starts I'm still the best part of 2 miles from the road works!
Damn sneaky I call it, but in the light of the Luton case, I can see why they've done it. It also means they can park up on the grass verge and catch everyone right at the beginning of the 40mph limit, when they know that most people driving along there will know that it starts long before any works.
Looks like I'll be finding out what Bedfordshire do with a PACE statement.......
If the bridge work was the only work that this order was there for, then the restriction would not be valid as the work has been completed. However, the fact that the restriction must be at least 2 miles long and the only work is in the last 200m means that they can honestly state that it hasn't been completed. Consequently, ideal pickings for the scamerati as I, along with probably 90% of the other drivers that use that bit of road, know that when the restriction starts I'm still the best part of 2 miles from the road works!
Damn sneaky I call it, but in the light of the Luton case, I can see why they've done it. It also means they can park up on the grass verge and catch everyone right at the beginning of the 40mph limit, when they know that most people driving along there will know that it starts long before any works.
Looks like I'll be finding out what Bedfordshire do with a PACE statement.......
Just to update everyone on this. I've posted a PACE Statement of Witness confirming my details, the NOIP with 'See Attached' written on it and a nice polite letter requesting the name and collar number of the police officer operating the camera at the time of the alledged offence.
Time to sit back and see what happens.
Time to sit back and see what happens.
gilbertd said:
Just to update everyone on this. I've posted a PACE Statement of Witness confirming my details, the NOIP with 'See Attached' written on it and a nice polite letter requesting the name and collar number of the police officer operating the camera at the time of the alledged offence.
Time to sit back and see what happens.
Just a quickie and probably a long shot, but what was the EXACT wording of the location as stated on the NIP ?
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff