Insurance Validity
Discussion
Assuming someone tuned their car (had it chipped for example by a tuning company), and had a standard insurance policy and didn't inform said insurance company, would they then:
1) Invalidate their insurance policy?
2) Be defrauding their insurance company if they attempted to claim without informing them of the work?
3) Be liable for potentially huge costs?
4) Attract the interest of the Bib for basically being uninsured?
5) Be very foolish to claim such things on an internet forum and could that then be used as evidence?
Is there any substance in the above or not? And if so would it be worst case scenario?
It's not me you understand, I'm just interested to know.
1) Invalidate their insurance policy?
2) Be defrauding their insurance company if they attempted to claim without informing them of the work?
3) Be liable for potentially huge costs?
4) Attract the interest of the Bib for basically being uninsured?
5) Be very foolish to claim such things on an internet forum and could that then be used as evidence?
Is there any substance in the above or not? And if so would it be worst case scenario?
It's not me you understand, I'm just interested to know.
My current insurers will not insure me if I chip my car so I would assume that they would very promptly wash their hands of any responsibility if I were to chip it but not tell them. Defrauding them, I'm not sure but I think that the other issues you mention would be triggered by such an invalidation.
Chris
>> Edited by ripton on Monday 27th February 11:11
Chris
>> Edited by ripton on Monday 27th February 11:11
yes to all
don't work in insurance now, when i did chipping wasn't something that was about, but essentially
you're changing the risk, they think you have abc at 200 bhp so they charge you x however, you have abc at 250 bhp in their eyes more of a risk so should charge you more, its a material fact that would influence their decision to charge you a premium.
If you claim and it comes to light; they can return the premium, and leave you with out cover and one wrecked car, ask you to pay more and then probably refuse to insure you at renewal
some companies claim that their chipping is undetectable
don't work in insurance now, when i did chipping wasn't something that was about, but essentially
you're changing the risk, they think you have abc at 200 bhp so they charge you x however, you have abc at 250 bhp in their eyes more of a risk so should charge you more, its a material fact that would influence their decision to charge you a premium.
If you claim and it comes to light; they can return the premium, and leave you with out cover and one wrecked car, ask you to pay more and then probably refuse to insure you at renewal
some companies claim that their chipping is undetectable
What happens if you buy a car believing it is standard, then have an accident and it comes to light that the car did have some performance modifications you were not aware of ( chipping, or different dampers or brakes for example ). Since you had not told your insurence company, are you then in trouble? Or will the " to the best of my knowledge " save you?
BIG DUNC said:
What happens if you buy a car believing it is standard, then have an accident and it comes to light that the car did have some performance modifications you were not aware of ( chipping, or different dampers or brakes for example ). Since you had not told your insurence company, are you then in trouble? Or will the " to the best of my knowledge " save you?
I suspect that that is not a position you want to find yourself in. Best way out would be have the previous owner coroborate your story, otherwise I can't see the insurance companies buying it.
Chris
It's clear that tuning via a computer programme is harder for an insurer to detect than, say, fitting twin 40 DCOE's onto your Cortina GT plus a high-lift cam and big-valve head. The insurer would need to be able to read the codes on the chip to catch you.
So, although you are unlikely to be caught 'chipping', the risk is there, especially if your car looks non-standard in other respects and is involved in a 'big' accident.
If your car is not as described to the insurer it is, technically, uninsured and you are committing an offence of Driving Whilst Uninsured (how the BiB would detect this is another matter). Then, if you make a claim for any loss you are 'Attempting to Obtain a Pecuniary Advantage by Deception' (or something like that, I believe).
It's really not worth the risk.
So, although you are unlikely to be caught 'chipping', the risk is there, especially if your car looks non-standard in other respects and is involved in a 'big' accident.
If your car is not as described to the insurer it is, technically, uninsured and you are committing an offence of Driving Whilst Uninsured (how the BiB would detect this is another matter). Then, if you make a claim for any loss you are 'Attempting to Obtain a Pecuniary Advantage by Deception' (or something like that, I believe).
It's really not worth the risk.
I think you will find that under the circumstances that Insurance Company will pay out only to the third party and then claim back through civil action against the driver of the chipped vehicle because he has not informed them of the modification.
No offence of using without Insurance disclosed.
High Court decisions as to whether Insurance obtained by misrepresentation covered a driver has flowed backwards and forwards over the years from Guardian Assurance Co v Sutherland [1939] when it was held certificate covered no one to Durrant v McClaren [1956] when it was held it did until such time as Insurers made steps to make void and seemingly this was upheld in Adams v Dunn [1978]. Could be there may be other later cases swinging the pendulem back again. If you look at Section 148 RTA 88 this prohibits an Insurance Company from refusing a third party claim due to the condition of the vehicle, or horsepower or cyclinder capacity of the vehicle. The clause that most Policies contain is something on the lines that the vehicle has to be kept in roadworthy condition which gives them the leverage to recover monies paid to third partyies in civil action.
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 27th February 16:11
No offence of using without Insurance disclosed.
High Court decisions as to whether Insurance obtained by misrepresentation covered a driver has flowed backwards and forwards over the years from Guardian Assurance Co v Sutherland [1939] when it was held certificate covered no one to Durrant v McClaren [1956] when it was held it did until such time as Insurers made steps to make void and seemingly this was upheld in Adams v Dunn [1978]. Could be there may be other later cases swinging the pendulem back again. If you look at Section 148 RTA 88 this prohibits an Insurance Company from refusing a third party claim due to the condition of the vehicle, or horsepower or cyclinder capacity of the vehicle. The clause that most Policies contain is something on the lines that the vehicle has to be kept in roadworthy condition which gives them the leverage to recover monies paid to third partyies in civil action.
dvd
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 27th February 16:11
I chipped my car, and my current company effectively jumped backwardsin shock horror, then wanted to load me a grand and a half!.
However went to another company (with no links to being in a union, or indeed coming from anywhere near norwich) and they said 'what type of chip is it?, before coming up with a list!.
Result - loaded £89.
However went to another company (with no links to being in a union, or indeed coming from anywhere near norwich) and they said 'what type of chip is it?, before coming up with a list!.
Result - loaded £89.
I used to have an Astra GTE. It was not until it was in a workshop that knew the cars well, and the bloke said " thats had loads done to it, must have cost you a fortune " that I realised. I thought they were all like that!! I sold it shortly after as it was starting to disolve!! However, I never knew EXACTLY what had been done to it.
hanse cronje said:
some companies claim that their chipping is undetectable
And in my experience those are the ones i would avoid.
When i had my car re-mapped i was left in no doubt that i should inform my insurers. Just declare everything and have done with it.
A couple of hours of phone calls, a bit of surfing / Googling and if you can lower yourself this far...a flick thru the insurance ads in MaxPower et al will almost certainly find you an insurer that will be either sympathetic, and apply a minimal loading, or even treat you as an enthusiast (join an owner's club *hint* ) and come up with a policy that is cheaper than standard.
I'm running 45-50 Bhp over standard (remap) with a few basic brake & suspension mods, and some other odds & ends. Everything is declared in writing.
My premium this year was equal to the standard price from most insurers.
What about when the chip is a new (different) one from the manufacturer. My Tuscan had several chips sent from the factory to cure engine niggles. Each was different from the standard chip for and theoretically each one would have given slightly different performance - after one of the chip changes you could notice a very slight increase. I daresay a lot of TVR’s are running non-standard chips because many have had similar problems to mine. Should I have informed my insurers if it was a chip from the manufacturer under warranty?
vesuvius996 said:
Simple answer. Declare EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.
Utter honesty is the only option to avoid disaster here. If you can't afford the premium, don't make the mods.
Do NOT give them ANY excuse. AT ALL.
I'll echo this. A few years ago a neighbours daughter bought a Sierra Sapphire and insured it as such. What she failed to mention to the insurance company was that it was fitted with Sierra Cosworth side skirts, spoiler and alloys. It was stolen and later recovered. The insurance assessor took one look at it and they refused to pay a penny. She argued that she hadn't mentioned them as she didn't consider it to be modified. The extras were purely cosmetic and it was a bog standard 1.8 Sierra underneath. They successfully argued that the addition of the Cosworth bits made it more attractive, therefore more likely to be stolen, and were very material. Had they known they would have loaded her premium to take this into account.
vesuvius996 said:
Simple answer. Declare EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.
Utter honesty is the only option to avoid disaster here. If you can't afford the premium, don't make the mods.
Do NOT give them ANY excuse. AT ALL.
Hear, hear. If you're involved in a big accident, the insurance company (or rather, their loss adjusters) will go over your car with an electron microscope to find reasons not to pay. And these people are not stupid. They'll almost certainly find out if your car has been chipped.
Do you really want to spend the rest of your life paying off a £2M damages claim?
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