Parking Ticket - Signage Question
Discussion
This morning at about 7.30 I drove my girlfirend to the tube. Normally we walk but since we were a bit late we had to take the car, and I thought I would go another 50m and pick up some breakfast at Sainsburys. I wasn't quite sure what the parkign regulations were outside, but I pulled up here,
and looked at the sign..
So, it looked good to me (time was ~7.40am). I went in, bought my cereal, and was out 5 minutes later. I was rather suprised to see a yellow PCN stuck under my wiper. The parking warden just happened to be walking past too, so I stopped him to ask why I had a ticket. He then pointed to this sign,
In case you hadn't noticed (like me), this is the same signpost that is in the first three pics, but the "No Loading" bit is facing the wrong way - I wouldn't have parked there if it had been visible. I intend to appeal and go to the adjudictor if necessary, what do you think my chances are?
BTW - I only live 5 minutes walk away so I went ad parked back at home, and walked back with my camera - hence the pics.
and looked at the sign..
So, it looked good to me (time was ~7.40am). I went in, bought my cereal, and was out 5 minutes later. I was rather suprised to see a yellow PCN stuck under my wiper. The parking warden just happened to be walking past too, so I stopped him to ask why I had a ticket. He then pointed to this sign,
In case you hadn't noticed (like me), this is the same signpost that is in the first three pics, but the "No Loading" bit is facing the wrong way - I wouldn't have parked there if it had been visible. I intend to appeal and go to the adjudictor if necessary, what do you think my chances are?
BTW - I only live 5 minutes walk away so I went ad parked back at home, and walked back with my camera - hence the pics.
Edited by dcw@pr on Tuesday 11th July 10:05
Whats the betting that the warden turned the no waiting / loading sign round to face away from the road?
What are the dotted white lines for? Some near pavement, some further out?
Wonder if the intention is to have marked pay and display parking bays with stretches of no waiting / loading in between.
Looks to me like only the no loading markings are in place and correct, the yellow lines are almost invisible, and the white dotted are not too clear.
Adjudicator it is then, another piccie longitudinally along the road would be useful, but it will be interesting to hear the follow up.
You also need to get the regulation order for the road.
What are the dotted white lines for? Some near pavement, some further out?
Wonder if the intention is to have marked pay and display parking bays with stretches of no waiting / loading in between.
Looks to me like only the no loading markings are in place and correct, the yellow lines are almost invisible, and the white dotted are not too clear.
Adjudicator it is then, another piccie longitudinally along the road would be useful, but it will be interesting to hear the follow up.
You also need to get the regulation order for the road.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 11th July 09:52
Flat in Fifth said:
Whats the betting that the warden turned the no waiting / loading sign round to face away from the road?
What are the dotted white lines for? Some near pavement, some further out?
What are the dotted white lines for? Some near pavement, some further out?
Maybe not so clear from that angle - but the ones nearer the pavement are the parking bay markers - they go up and down the raod for ~25m in each directon from where I parked, with no breaks. The white lines further out are the central road markings
Flat in Fifth said:
Wonder if the intention is to have marked pay and display parking bays with stretches of no waiting / loading in between.
Looks to me like only the no loading markings are in place and correct, the yellow lines are almost invisible, and the white dotted are not too clear.
Looks to me like only the no loading markings are in place and correct, the yellow lines are almost invisible, and the white dotted are not too clear.
As above, the parking bay is marked quite clearly with the white lines, with no seperate bays marked. You are right though, the yellow lines are almost totally gone!
Flat in Fifth said:
You also need to get the regulation order for the road.
what's that, and where do I find it?
OK it just looked like the white dotted lines which pass 'through' your red cross appeared to be too close to the kerb to be the parking bay markings.
So what you have is a road where the situation is
7am-10 am Waiting loading prohibited
10am-4pm Waiting /Loading Ok providing P&D ticket purchased and displayed.
4pm-7pm Waiting loading prohibited
7pm-7am presumably a free for all?
ie during rush hours prohibited.
So your ticket is issued on that basis ie parking 07:40.
You will get traffic regulation order from the council.
You need to check the markings and signs are in line with Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002
I would say they do not.
This website gives useful info and advice
So what you have is a road where the situation is
7am-10 am Waiting loading prohibited
10am-4pm Waiting /Loading Ok providing P&D ticket purchased and displayed.
4pm-7pm Waiting loading prohibited
7pm-7am presumably a free for all?
ie during rush hours prohibited.
So your ticket is issued on that basis ie parking 07:40.
You will get traffic regulation order from the council.
You need to check the markings and signs are in line with Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2002
I would say they do not.
This website gives useful info and advice
The other clue to look for the loading sign is the yellow dashed on the kerb edge - they indicate loading restrictions and so in a perfect world you should look for the explanatory sign.
Also, [P] 10am-4pm indicates the permitted parking times, so I'd have been suspicious from the off.
If that weren't enough, a completely free parking zone right outside the shops and close to the station? Too good to be true, surely?
Also, [P] 10am-4pm indicates the permitted parking times, so I'd have been suspicious from the off.
If that weren't enough, a completely free parking zone right outside the shops and close to the station? Too good to be true, surely?
OK, that's useful information, but I think I have a pretty clear cut case on the fact that the sign wasnt't properly visible, without having to go into a lot of detail about the road markings etc. I think what I will do it proceed with just that point to begin with, and if it does actually go to the adjudicator then I can research this to have a few more things to throw at them. Or am I over rating the signage problem?
pdV6 said:
Also, [P] 10am-4pm indicates the permitted parking times, so I'd have been suspicious from the off.
If that weren't enough, a completely free parking zone right outside the shops and close to the station? Too good to be true, surely?
If that weren't enough, a completely free parking zone right outside the shops and close to the station? Too good to be true, surely?
nope - right here outside my window is an identical sign, excpet it says P&D 10am-Noon, and outside of that it is unrestricted parking.
pdV6 said:
dcw@pr said:
right here outside my window is an identical sign, excpet it says P&D 10am-Noon, and outside of that it is unrestricted parking.
What's the point in that? Weird.
The point is that up until about October 2005 it was totally unrestricted parking here. AFAIK this was the most central place in north london that was unrestrcited, so the streets were FULL of commuter cars who had parked here and then jumped on the tube. They then changed it so that it is restricted parking from 10-12, with a max stay in P&D of one hour, so that people couldn't commute and park here all day. Suits me and my residents permit!
Tongue in cheek.
Be interesting when your case is resolved one way or the other, if you have some spare time to make sure that both signs are the correct way round, then set yourself up on obs and take a photo of the wardens turning the sign round again.
If you could manage that it would be a killer pic for the Daily Wail.
I think you should find the killer blow for your defence and make that. research it all. Remember if the signs and markings are not to the regulations then legally they do not exist.
Be interesting when your case is resolved one way or the other, if you have some spare time to make sure that both signs are the correct way round, then set yourself up on obs and take a photo of the wardens turning the sign round again.
If you could manage that it would be a killer pic for the Daily Wail.
I think you should find the killer blow for your defence and make that. research it all. Remember if the signs and markings are not to the regulations then legally they do not exist.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 11th July 13:49
ok, here is the latest.
I am slightly confused because of the single line running through the P&D bay (which appears to be incorrectly marked due to double lines to start it with, but that is irrelevant for me, although useful to know for the future!)
I would have thought that the most obvious flaw is that the yellow line runs straight into and through the "KEEP CLEAR" markings, very much no what is shown here. Also, it is definately fair to say that the lines have not been maintained to a high standard.
I am slightly confused because of the single line running through the P&D bay (which appears to be incorrectly marked due to double lines to start it with, but that is irrelevant for me, although useful to know for the future!)
I would have thought that the most obvious flaw is that the yellow line runs straight into and through the "KEEP CLEAR" markings, very much no what is shown here. Also, it is definately fair to say that the lines have not been maintained to a high standard.
Stubby Pete said:
Two points.
1. Why did you move the car before taking phots, you wouldn't get another ticket and that would have helped confirm the timing of the photos (you did not move teh sign yourself later)?
2. How the f**k do those yellow lines constitute "solid yellow line" as required?
1. Why did you move the car before taking phots, you wouldn't get another ticket and that would have helped confirm the timing of the photos (you did not move teh sign yourself later)?
2. How the f**k do those yellow lines constitute "solid yellow line" as required?
1. Had to drive home to get camera, did not fancy leaving the car there to get clamped/removed (happened to my girlfriend's car 10 mins after she had been ticketed)
2. Who knows!
3. Have a look at this picture,
edit - one more thing - the parking warden kindly pointed out that "it's on camera too", pointing at a council CCTV thing looking at us. Not sure why this was relevant, but if they ever did try and say I moved it then it will all be on the CCTV.
Edited by dcw@pr on Tuesday 11th July 15:51
That yellow should be unenforceable along it's entire length as it is broken in the second to last picture. Also shouldn't it have been terminated with a t-bar before the parking bay and the zig-zags?. Add that to the sign pointing away from the road and I would say you've got a very good case for a technical defence.
What difference do the signs make? Do they override road markings if they are correct or are the road markings necessary to mark where the order is in force?
What difference do the signs make? Do they override road markings if they are correct or are the road markings necessary to mark where the order is in force?
BliarOut said:
That yellow should be unenforceable along it's entire length as it is broken in the second to last picture. Also shouldn't it have been terminated with a t-bar before the parking bay and the zig-zags?. Add that to the sign pointing away from the road and I would say you've got a very good case for a technical defence.
What difference do the signs make? Do they override road markings if they are correct or are the road markings necessary to mark where the order is in force?
What difference do the signs make? Do they override road markings if they are correct or are the road markings necessary to mark where the order is in force?
what I find weird though is that there is aparking bay AND a yellow line, as evidenced by the sign(s), so they shouldn't terminate at the ends of each bay. But are they actually allowed to layer different sets of road markings on top of each other like that?
I'd also make a strong letter of complaint to the manager of the Sainsbury's shop, supermarkets don't like councils picking on their customers.
There was an undercover documentary on telly last year where they recorded evidence of a parking fine being ripped up, as it was issued to the manager of a Morrison's supermarket who had parked without a ticket in the council-owned car park (shared use for the shoppers)
There was an undercover documentary on telly last year where they recorded evidence of a parking fine being ripped up, as it was issued to the manager of a Morrison's supermarket who had parked without a ticket in the council-owned car park (shared use for the shoppers)
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