Speeding Ticket
Discussion
Hey there guys - new to the site this morning
I have a question for you guys re: a speeding ticket.
There are 4 of us who could have been driving the car at the time of the offence. I have seen the photo (by asking for it) and you can not identify the driver. We can not remember who was driving the car - I dont know what I am supposed to do, because I sent a list of all the names and addresses of the 4 people who could have been driving, and they have now sent me a letter back saying that they are going to summon me to court. We do not (as I am sure is the case for 99.99% of the world) keep a diary of who drives where when etc, so can not re-call the information like that.
I dont want to say "ok, ill take it to save time and money", A) Mainly because my understanding is that this is a breach of the law, but also B) I am not too happy taking them if it was not me!
If anyone could please advise on what is best for me to do, that would be great. Also, does anyone know what would happen if i go to court and state that I cant remember who was driving (the truth) - can they prosecute me? If they can, what is the penalties? Surely they cant give me a fine or points, because I have been as helpful as possible - sent letters requesting the photo, saying the people who could have been driving etc. etc.
I look forward to a reply.
Cheers guys
Matt
I have a question for you guys re: a speeding ticket.
There are 4 of us who could have been driving the car at the time of the offence. I have seen the photo (by asking for it) and you can not identify the driver. We can not remember who was driving the car - I dont know what I am supposed to do, because I sent a list of all the names and addresses of the 4 people who could have been driving, and they have now sent me a letter back saying that they are going to summon me to court. We do not (as I am sure is the case for 99.99% of the world) keep a diary of who drives where when etc, so can not re-call the information like that.
I dont want to say "ok, ill take it to save time and money", A) Mainly because my understanding is that this is a breach of the law, but also B) I am not too happy taking them if it was not me!
If anyone could please advise on what is best for me to do, that would be great. Also, does anyone know what would happen if i go to court and state that I cant remember who was driving (the truth) - can they prosecute me? If they can, what is the penalties? Surely they cant give me a fine or points, because I have been as helpful as possible - sent letters requesting the photo, saying the people who could have been driving etc. etc.
I look forward to a reply.
Cheers guys
Matt
mattgarnham said:
Hey there guys - new to the site this morning
I have a question for you guys re: a speeding ticket.
There are 4 of us who could have been driving the car at the time of the offence. I have seen the photo (by asking for it) and you can not identify the driver. We can not remember who was driving the car - I dont know what I am supposed to do, because I sent a list of all the names and addresses of the 4 people who could have been driving, and they have now sent me a letter back saying that they are going to summon me to court. We do not (as I am sure is the case for 99.99% of the world) keep a diary of who drives where when etc, so can not re-call the information like that.
I dont want to say "ok, ill take it to save time and money", A) Mainly because my understanding is that this is a breach of the law, but also B) I am not too happy taking them if it was not me!
If anyone could please advise on what is best for me to do, that would be great. Also, does anyone know what would happen if i go to court and state that I cant remember who was driving (the truth) - can they prosecute me? If they can, what is the penalties? Surely they cant give me a fine or points, because I have been as helpful as possible - sent letters requesting the photo, saying the people who could have been driving etc. etc.
I look forward to a reply.
Cheers guys
Matt
I have a question for you guys re: a speeding ticket.
There are 4 of us who could have been driving the car at the time of the offence. I have seen the photo (by asking for it) and you can not identify the driver. We can not remember who was driving the car - I dont know what I am supposed to do, because I sent a list of all the names and addresses of the 4 people who could have been driving, and they have now sent me a letter back saying that they are going to summon me to court. We do not (as I am sure is the case for 99.99% of the world) keep a diary of who drives where when etc, so can not re-call the information like that.
I dont want to say "ok, ill take it to save time and money", A) Mainly because my understanding is that this is a breach of the law, but also B) I am not too happy taking them if it was not me!
If anyone could please advise on what is best for me to do, that would be great. Also, does anyone know what would happen if i go to court and state that I cant remember who was driving (the truth) - can they prosecute me? If they can, what is the penalties? Surely they cant give me a fine or points, because I have been as helpful as possible - sent letters requesting the photo, saying the people who could have been driving etc. etc.
I look forward to a reply.
Cheers guys
Matt
If there are 4 of you in the frame(not literally) and you can't remember whether you where driving surely one or more of the others know whether they where driving.
If you asked me whether i was driving my BM on a certain road 6 weeks ago I would be able to say either "no way" or "possibly".
Not being funny but I find it hard to believe that all 3 or your mates are saying "possibly".
Not much help am I?.
Edited by slowly slowly on Monday 27th November 21:15
3 months ago. From the date of the alleged offence to the date that you recieved the FPN how long was it?
Am i right in thinking that there were four of you in the car and that you were "taking turns" driving. Was it a long journey?
This may be stupid but can we ascertain that all 4 of you can drive and that all four of you are insured on this car or through the other vehicles thing on insurances.
Looking at the photograpic evidence it may be possible for the prosecution to narrow it down. Per say that looking at the picture taken by a camera can you see the heads of the people in the back and can you ascertain through process of elimination who was not driving. Ie narrow it down from this?
What you may be charged with is either an SP offence or failure to identify the driver which bears a similiar punishment to a SP offence.
For the SP offence it is relatively impossible for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were driving. However a strict liability of Failing to identify the driver falls you you, who i am presuming to be the owner and/or registered keeper of the vehicle. What you must do is prove through your actions and they will look objectively at this that you acted with diligence in your attempts to attain the driver and convice that you really do not know who was driving at the time. They may see it as absurd to prosecute you for this because you are not failing to do something because you cannot do it.
Good luck with this one
Am i right in thinking that there were four of you in the car and that you were "taking turns" driving. Was it a long journey?
This may be stupid but can we ascertain that all 4 of you can drive and that all four of you are insured on this car or through the other vehicles thing on insurances.
Looking at the photograpic evidence it may be possible for the prosecution to narrow it down. Per say that looking at the picture taken by a camera can you see the heads of the people in the back and can you ascertain through process of elimination who was not driving. Ie narrow it down from this?
What you may be charged with is either an SP offence or failure to identify the driver which bears a similiar punishment to a SP offence.
For the SP offence it is relatively impossible for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were driving. However a strict liability of Failing to identify the driver falls you you, who i am presuming to be the owner and/or registered keeper of the vehicle. What you must do is prove through your actions and they will look objectively at this that you acted with diligence in your attempts to attain the driver and convice that you really do not know who was driving at the time. They may see it as absurd to prosecute you for this because you are not failing to do something because you cannot do it.
Good luck with this one
bi9_jk said:
3 months ago. From the date of the alleged offence to the date that you recieved the FPN how long was it?
Am i right in thinking that there were four of you in the car and that you were "taking turns" driving. Was it a long journey?
This may be stupid but can we ascertain that all 4 of you can drive and that all four of you are insured on this car or through the other vehicles thing on insurances.
Looking at the photograpic evidence it may be possible for the prosecution to narrow it down. Per say that looking at the picture taken by a camera can you see the heads of the people in the back and can you ascertain through process of elimination who was not driving. Ie narrow it down from this?
What you may be charged with is either an SP offence or failure to identify the driver which bears a similiar punishment to a SP offence.
For the SP offence it is relatively impossible for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were driving. However a strict liability of Failing to identify the driver falls you you, who i am presuming to be the owner and/or registered keeper of the vehicle. What you must do is prove through your actions and they will look objectively at this that you acted with diligence in your attempts to attain the driver and convice that you really do not know who was driving at the time. They may see it as absurd to prosecute you for this because you are not failing to do something because you cannot do it.
Good luck with this one
Am i right in thinking that there were four of you in the car and that you were "taking turns" driving. Was it a long journey?
This may be stupid but can we ascertain that all 4 of you can drive and that all four of you are insured on this car or through the other vehicles thing on insurances.
Looking at the photograpic evidence it may be possible for the prosecution to narrow it down. Per say that looking at the picture taken by a camera can you see the heads of the people in the back and can you ascertain through process of elimination who was not driving. Ie narrow it down from this?
What you may be charged with is either an SP offence or failure to identify the driver which bears a similiar punishment to a SP offence.
For the SP offence it is relatively impossible for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were driving. However a strict liability of Failing to identify the driver falls you you, who i am presuming to be the owner and/or registered keeper of the vehicle. What you must do is prove through your actions and they will look objectively at this that you acted with diligence in your attempts to attain the driver and convice that you really do not know who was driving at the time. They may see it as absurd to prosecute you for this because you are not failing to do something because you cannot do it.
Good luck with this one
Before doing anything just make sure your all insured.. we can be naughty beggers and you could talk yourself in to a different offence. If you genuinly cannot remember and it has been 3 months and the photo does not help I personaly think you have reasonable chance of no prosecution as the only offence thats left would be failure to disclose the driver which has a defence if reasonable efforts are made. If you are not sure it was you driving that bit and no one else remembers then do not accept the speeding ticket as in theory that could in itself be a perverting the course of justice.
slowly slowly said:
If there are 4 of you in the frame(not literally) and you can't remember whether you where driving surely one or more of the others know whether they where driving.
...but since they don't have the pernicious S172 dangling over them they do retain the right not to incriminate themselves and would be foolish to relinquish it.
Tell the truth; none of the potential drivers recall driving at that time or place, show that youve tried to narrow the list down and if there is one grain of justice in the system (hah!) you'll be fine.
ok - it seems a bit of a mix-up going on here!!
there are 4 people who could have been driving the car. only 2 people were in the car at the time (tell this from the snap).
Process of events:
-I got the NIP
-Sent a letter back saying can I please have the photo becasue I dont know who was driving
-Got the photo and a letter saying you have 28 days to reply with who the driver was
-I sent a letter back saying I am (we are) unable to identify who was driving, but the 4 possibilities are xxxxx, xxxxxx, xxxxxx and xxxxxxx all living at the address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-Just got a letter through and i quote: "In light of your most recent correspondence I am unable to provide any further information that would be of help in resolving this matter. There is currently no fixed penalty procedure in respect of cases where the keeper of the vehicle is unable to provide information to identify the driver. The file will therefore now be forwarded to the Summons Production Unit who will in due course issue a summons against the registered keeper or nominated user. The offence for which the summons will be issued is detailed at the foot of the Notice....."
As i say, i dont want to "pervert the course of justice" but i also dont want to get hit with a huge fine (or an obscene number of points for what would have been a 3 point infringement)
What is an SP offence? is that like the standard £60 fine and 3 points?
What is the penalty of failing to identify the driver?
Cheers for the tips guys
M
x
there are 4 people who could have been driving the car. only 2 people were in the car at the time (tell this from the snap).
Process of events:
-I got the NIP
-Sent a letter back saying can I please have the photo becasue I dont know who was driving
-Got the photo and a letter saying you have 28 days to reply with who the driver was
-I sent a letter back saying I am (we are) unable to identify who was driving, but the 4 possibilities are xxxxx, xxxxxx, xxxxxx and xxxxxxx all living at the address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-Just got a letter through and i quote: "In light of your most recent correspondence I am unable to provide any further information that would be of help in resolving this matter. There is currently no fixed penalty procedure in respect of cases where the keeper of the vehicle is unable to provide information to identify the driver. The file will therefore now be forwarded to the Summons Production Unit who will in due course issue a summons against the registered keeper or nominated user. The offence for which the summons will be issued is detailed at the foot of the Notice....."
As i say, i dont want to "pervert the course of justice" but i also dont want to get hit with a huge fine (or an obscene number of points for what would have been a 3 point infringement)
What is an SP offence? is that like the standard £60 fine and 3 points?
What is the penalty of failing to identify the driver?
Cheers for the tips guys
M
x
mattgarnham said:
ok - it seems a bit of a mix-up going on here!!
there are 4 people who could have been driving the car. only 2 people were in the car at the time (tell this from the snap).
Process of events:
-I got the NIP
-Sent a letter back saying can I please have the photo becasue I dont know who was driving
-Got the photo and a letter saying you have 28 days to reply with who the driver was
-I sent a letter back saying I am (we are) unable to identify who was driving, but the 4 possibilities are xxxxx, xxxxxx, xxxxxx and xxxxxxx all living at the address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-Just got a letter through and i quote: "In light of your most recent correspondence I am unable to provide any further information that would be of help in resolving this matter. There is currently no fixed penalty procedure in respect of cases where the keeper of the vehicle is unable to provide information to identify the driver. The file will therefore now be forwarded to the Summons Production Unit who will in due course issue a summons against the registered keeper or nominated user. The offence for which the summons will be issued is detailed at the foot of the Notice....."
As i say, i dont want to "pervert the course of justice" but i also dont want to get hit with a huge fine (or an obscene number of points for what would have been a 3 point infringement)
What is an SP offence? is that like the standard £60 fine and 3 points?
What is the penalty of failing to identify the driver?
Cheers for the tips guys
M
x
there are 4 people who could have been driving the car. only 2 people were in the car at the time (tell this from the snap).
Process of events:
-I got the NIP
-Sent a letter back saying can I please have the photo becasue I dont know who was driving
-Got the photo and a letter saying you have 28 days to reply with who the driver was
-I sent a letter back saying I am (we are) unable to identify who was driving, but the 4 possibilities are xxxxx, xxxxxx, xxxxxx and xxxxxxx all living at the address: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-Just got a letter through and i quote: "In light of your most recent correspondence I am unable to provide any further information that would be of help in resolving this matter. There is currently no fixed penalty procedure in respect of cases where the keeper of the vehicle is unable to provide information to identify the driver. The file will therefore now be forwarded to the Summons Production Unit who will in due course issue a summons against the registered keeper or nominated user. The offence for which the summons will be issued is detailed at the foot of the Notice....."
As i say, i dont want to "pervert the course of justice" but i also dont want to get hit with a huge fine (or an obscene number of points for what would have been a 3 point infringement)
What is an SP offence? is that like the standard £60 fine and 3 points?
What is the penalty of failing to identify the driver?
Cheers for the tips guys
M
x
SP offence is speeding offence. If they were going to issue a FPN that would have been 3 points & £60.
For failure to nominate it's an obligatory 3 points, max £1000 fine & a discretionary disqualification.
I have heard that some insurers will penalise more heavily for a MS90 endorsement (failure to nominate) than a SP, but have no direct experience of it.
You need to lay down a paper trail with the police/pratnership stating
a) The names of the drivers who were driving including yourself
b) That you have questioned each of the drivers on <date> and they have been unable to help or unwilling to help. It is true that they can refuse to answer your questions. Only the RK is bound by S172.
c) If you were reasonably sure you were not the driver when the offence took place you need to record that
d) I would invite the police to interview the nominated drivers and see if they can do better
e) Also ask for a copy of the photograhic evidence ( simply for form as tht will show nothing useful )
The wording of the act is
172. — (1) This section applies—
(a) to any offence under the preceding provisions of this Act except— (i) an offence under Part V, or (ii) an offence under section 13, 16, 51(2), 61(4), 67(9), 68(4), 96 or 120,and to an offence under section 178 of this Act,
(b) to any offence under sections 25, 26 or 27 of the [1988 c. 53.] Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988,
(c) to any offence against any other enactment relating to the use of vehicles on roads, except an offence under paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 to the [1989 c. 22.] Road Traffic (Driver Licensing and Information Systems) Act 1989, and
(d) to manslaughter, or in Scotland culpable homicide, by the driver of a motor vehicle.
(2) Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which this section applies—
(a) the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police, and
(b) any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.
(3) Subject to the following provisions, a person who fails to comply with a requirement under subsection (2) above shall be guilty of an offence.
(4) A person shall not be guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
Your case needs to support (4) as far as possible - with written evidence, lots and lots of it.
The trouble is in North Wales at least, the magistrates have been groomed to treat anyone charged under S172 automatically as a liar except in exceptional circumstances. I have been told this by a magistrate who actually believes this. I have told her that I regard this as perversion of the course of justice. She is from the blinkered social group who do a low milegae, would not dream of having anyone drive her car, far less of lending it to someone to drive and leads a life in which so little happens that she can remember anything exceptional like a car journey.
A friend yesterday was hit with £500 for such an offence - he failed to lay the paper trail but knocked the CPS back and even had 2 of the 3 mags nodding in acceptance of his defence. The mag in the middle seat however scolded him for 'not keeping a log' even though as a private individual there is no requirement whatsoever to do so.
Justice - my @rse - hopefully the ECHR will deliver a reasonable finding on the Francis case and then people like my fiend will hit this rotten system for all its worth.
a) The names of the drivers who were driving including yourself
b) That you have questioned each of the drivers on <date> and they have been unable to help or unwilling to help. It is true that they can refuse to answer your questions. Only the RK is bound by S172.
c) If you were reasonably sure you were not the driver when the offence took place you need to record that
d) I would invite the police to interview the nominated drivers and see if they can do better
e) Also ask for a copy of the photograhic evidence ( simply for form as tht will show nothing useful )
The wording of the act is
172. — (1) This section applies—
(a) to any offence under the preceding provisions of this Act except— (i) an offence under Part V, or (ii) an offence under section 13, 16, 51(2), 61(4), 67(9), 68(4), 96 or 120,and to an offence under section 178 of this Act,
(b) to any offence under sections 25, 26 or 27 of the [1988 c. 53.] Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988,
(c) to any offence against any other enactment relating to the use of vehicles on roads, except an offence under paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 to the [1989 c. 22.] Road Traffic (Driver Licensing and Information Systems) Act 1989, and
(d) to manslaughter, or in Scotland culpable homicide, by the driver of a motor vehicle.
(2) Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which this section applies—
(a) the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police, and
(b) any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.
(3) Subject to the following provisions, a person who fails to comply with a requirement under subsection (2) above shall be guilty of an offence.
(4) A person shall not be guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
Your case needs to support (4) as far as possible - with written evidence, lots and lots of it.
The trouble is in North Wales at least, the magistrates have been groomed to treat anyone charged under S172 automatically as a liar except in exceptional circumstances. I have been told this by a magistrate who actually believes this. I have told her that I regard this as perversion of the course of justice. She is from the blinkered social group who do a low milegae, would not dream of having anyone drive her car, far less of lending it to someone to drive and leads a life in which so little happens that she can remember anything exceptional like a car journey.
A friend yesterday was hit with £500 for such an offence - he failed to lay the paper trail but knocked the CPS back and even had 2 of the 3 mags nodding in acceptance of his defence. The mag in the middle seat however scolded him for 'not keeping a log' even though as a private individual there is no requirement whatsoever to do so.
Justice - my @rse - hopefully the ECHR will deliver a reasonable finding on the Francis case and then people like my fiend will hit this rotten system for all its worth.
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