National ANPR - they will know where you are.
Discussion
Appologies if this is old news, I knew it existed but this is the first time I've seen an official answer from the Bliarites.
From here: www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2007-03-15a.125643.h (Incidentally, if you've not used it beofre, this web site is very good - it will for example e-mail you when your MP says something)
"The Government have provided £32.5 million of capital investment between the years 2005 and 2007 to enhance Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) infrastructure at a national, regional and local level.
The Home Office is working with colleagues in the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to use approximately £7 million of this funding to progress the development of a national infrastructure, specifically the National ANPR Data Centre (NADC—due to become fully operational during the 2007-08 financial year), and a Back Office Facility (BOF) system.
The NADC will hold data collected by police-operated ANPR-linked to closed circuit television (CCTV) systems. The BOF will provide data storage and analysis tools for all police forces in England and Wales, enabling them to use ANPR in a more effective manner to tackle all levels of criminality."
So, basically, they are goping to create a huge database of who was where at what date and time, and store it for future use. I bet the data will never be deleted, then access to it will be sold to whoever wants to pay the highest price.
From here: www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2007-03-15a.125643.h (Incidentally, if you've not used it beofre, this web site is very good - it will for example e-mail you when your MP says something)
"The Government have provided £32.5 million of capital investment between the years 2005 and 2007 to enhance Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) infrastructure at a national, regional and local level.
The Home Office is working with colleagues in the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to use approximately £7 million of this funding to progress the development of a national infrastructure, specifically the National ANPR Data Centre (NADC—due to become fully operational during the 2007-08 financial year), and a Back Office Facility (BOF) system.
The NADC will hold data collected by police-operated ANPR-linked to closed circuit television (CCTV) systems. The BOF will provide data storage and analysis tools for all police forces in England and Wales, enabling them to use ANPR in a more effective manner to tackle all levels of criminality."
So, basically, they are goping to create a huge database of who was where at what date and time, and store it for future use. I bet the data will never be deleted, then access to it will be sold to whoever wants to pay the highest price.
By its very nature ANPR is a national system as all the cameras are hooked up to the Police National Computer to locate the details of the vehicles they are checking. As every check generates a record of when and where it was made I suppose it would be possible to track where vehicles are.
Although saying that ANPR is solely used to check for stolen vehicles or vehicles of interest (i.e. the people in them). I doubt whether a speeding motorist would ever register as worth pulling, that's what speed cameras do all too efficiently.
Although saying that ANPR is solely used to check for stolen vehicles or vehicles of interest (i.e. the people in them). I doubt whether a speeding motorist would ever register as worth pulling, that's what speed cameras do all too efficiently.
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
No, that's not right at all. The value of your time means that you record details when it is useful or necessary to do so.
Bringing in this sort of technology means that data is soaked up even when it isn't useful or necessary. Misreads and the vast bulk of the data WILL lead to many accusations of innocent people.
If you have a billion records, the chances are that they contain 1,000 million-to-one freak conincidences.
So don't be surprised when your front door is kicked in at 5am because your vehicle happened to be unknowingly in the vicinity of two bank robberies.
The whole idea stinks. I haven't agreed to it and I don't consent to be subjected to it. Frankly I think the people behind it don't understand the numbers beyond the profits they will make from supplying the technology.
safespeed said:
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
No, that's not right at all. The value of your time means that you record details when it is useful or necessary to do so.
Bringing in this sort of technology means that data is soaked up even when it isn't useful or necessary. Misreads and the vast bulk of the data WILL lead to many accusations of innocent people.
If you have a billion records, the chances are that they contain 1,000 million-to-one freak conincidences.
So don't be surprised when your front door is kicked in at 5am because your vehicle happened to be unknowingly in the vicinity of two bank robberies.
The whole idea stinks. I haven't agreed to it and I don't consent to be subjected to it. Frankly I think the people behind it don't understand the numbers beyond the profits they will make from supplying the technology.
It was to my ex-colleague's advantage that he was a barrister (although not practising), so knew how to deal calmly with the situation (not that he was not incensed and indeed made a formal complaint against the officers involved for their attitude, and their incompetence!). It later emerged that the vehicle seen on the CCTV was not even the marque he drove.
Streaky
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
You have no idea, do you? With the kind of information that they will have here, they can do data mining to see if there are any unusual coincidences, such as "list any cars that have been in a 1-mile radius of Abu Hamza's car more than twice in the last year". If you happen to go grocery shopping at the same time and the same place as Captain Hook, you come to the attention of people who have nothing better to do than arrest people without due cause. And the record of your arrest will never go away. The fact that you were held in custody without charge for 28 days (or probably 90, soon) could easily cost you your job and your life could get destroyed like that <snaps fingers>.
It's not even a case of "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear". EVERYBODY has something to fear now.
streaky said:
safespeed said:
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
No, that's not right at all. The value of your time means that you record details when it is useful or necessary to do so.
Bringing in this sort of technology means that data is soaked up even when it isn't useful or necessary. Misreads and the vast bulk of the data WILL lead to many accusations of innocent people.
If you have a billion records, the chances are that they contain 1,000 million-to-one freak conincidences.
So don't be surprised when your front door is kicked in at 5am because your vehicle happened to be unknowingly in the vicinity of two bank robberies.
The whole idea stinks. I haven't agreed to it and I don't consent to be subjected to it. Frankly I think the people behind it don't understand the numbers beyond the profits they will make from supplying the technology.
It was to my ex-colleague's advantage that he was a barrister (although not practising), so knew how to deal calmly with the situation (not that he was not incensed and indeed made a formal complaint against the officers involved for their attitude, and their incompetence!). It later emerged that the vehicle seen on the CCTV was not even the marque he drove.
Streaky
I think this case shows old fashioned police incompetance not any fault of ANPR!
It was not the fault of the database that the mans house was raided by muppets.
spokey said:
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
You have no idea, do you? With the kind of information that they will have here, they can do data mining to see if there are any unusual coincidences, such as "list any cars that have been in a 1-mile radius of Abu Hamza's car more than twice in the last year". If you happen to go grocery shopping at the same time and the same place as Captain Hook, you come to the attention of people who have nothing better to do than arrest people without due cause. And the record of your arrest will never go away. The fact that you were held in custody without charge for 28 days (or probably 90, soon) could easily cost you your job and your life could get destroyed like that <snaps fingers>.
It's not even a case of "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear". EVERYBODY has something to fear now.
But that could be done anyway.
Check all PNC logs relating to an area, ask all the officers if they have seen Abu Hazas car, check CCTV. All that can be done now and has been standard practice for years.
ANPR is just an efficient way of collecting information.
It is what is done with that information that is important.
It is not the technology that arrests people.
See the post above re police incompetance, there is no excuse for that, but sadly it is nothing new.
chrispy porker said:
streaky said:
safespeed said:
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
No, that's not right at all. The value of your time means that you record details when it is useful or necessary to do so.
Bringing in this sort of technology means that data is soaked up even when it isn't useful or necessary. Misreads and the vast bulk of the data WILL lead to many accusations of innocent people.
If you have a billion records, the chances are that they contain 1,000 million-to-one freak conincidences.
So don't be surprised when your front door is kicked in at 5am because your vehicle happened to be unknowingly in the vicinity of two bank robberies.
The whole idea stinks. I haven't agreed to it and I don't consent to be subjected to it. Frankly I think the people behind it don't understand the numbers beyond the profits they will make from supplying the technology.
It was to my ex-colleague's advantage that he was a barrister (although not practising), so knew how to deal calmly with the situation (not that he was not incensed and indeed made a formal complaint against the officers involved for their attitude, and their incompetence!). It later emerged that the vehicle seen on the CCTV was not even the marque he drove.
Streaky
I think this case shows old fashioned police incompetance not any fault of ANPR!
It was not the fault of the database that the mans house was raided by muppets.
But it rather highlights the unshakeable faith in this rather intrusive und not always accurate technology which over-rides common sense und real intelligence on the part of these officers.
chrispy porker said:
spokey said:
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
You have no idea, do you? With the kind of information that they will have here, they can do data mining to see if there are any unusual coincidences, such as "list any cars that have been in a 1-mile radius of Abu Hamza's car more than twice in the last year". If you happen to go grocery shopping at the same time and the same place as Captain Hook, you come to the attention of people who have nothing better to do than arrest people without due cause. And the record of your arrest will never go away. The fact that you were held in custody without charge for 28 days (or probably 90, soon) could easily cost you your job and your life could get destroyed like that <snaps fingers>.
It's not even a case of "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear". EVERYBODY has something to fear now.
But that could be done anyway.
Check all PNC logs relating to an area, ask all the officers if they have seen Abu Hazas car, check CCTV. All that can be done now and has been standard practice for years.
ANPR is just an efficient way of collecting information.
It is what is done with that information that is important.
It is not the technology that arrests people.
See the post above re police incompetance, there is no excuse for that, but sadly it is nothing new.
Let me put it this way then... If you make the haystack a million times bigger and add a million false pins, it's harder, not easier, to find the pin that you were looking for in the first place.
This problem is massively compounded because people trust technology that they don't understand. (They are bound to because the less they understand it the more it looks like magic.) You'll need to understand statistics to understand the meaningfullness of such a large body of data - and how many of those using it will have an adequate understanding of statistics?
Und black box.. ANPR recording of where my car ist or a census point data collection..
It ist not that any one has anything to fear.. but the intrusive surveillance und the only ones easy to track are in fact the law abiding. Criminals und terrorists are only too well aware of these doo-dahs und will still be just as elusive to find as they are at the moment with these fangled devices - as per streaky's anecdote. (Anecdotes form the basis of these stats by the way to those who bleat "stats.. peer review und similar blinkered outlooks from top of their ivory towers in la-lah land
)
It ist not that any one has anything to fear.. but the intrusive surveillance und the only ones easy to track are in fact the law abiding. Criminals und terrorists are only too well aware of these doo-dahs und will still be just as elusive to find as they are at the moment with these fangled devices - as per streaky's anecdote. (Anecdotes form the basis of these stats by the way to those who bleat "stats.. peer review und similar blinkered outlooks from top of their ivory towers in la-lah land
) Edited by WildCat on Sunday 18th March 11:04
chrispy porker said:
spokey said:
chrispy porker said:
Who would want to buy a load of PNC logs?
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
Anyone want my PNB?
It's the same thing but automated.
If you want I could give you a list of vehicles I saw in 1980, and recorded.
So what?
All ANPR does is speed up the paperwork.
I could achieve the same data if I stood at the roadside with a clipboard a pencil and a PR.
It would just take a hell of a lot longer.
You have no idea, do you? With the kind of information that they will have here, they can do data mining to see if there are any unusual coincidences, such as "list any cars that have been in a 1-mile radius of Abu Hamza's car more than twice in the last year". If you happen to go grocery shopping at the same time and the same place as Captain Hook, you come to the attention of people who have nothing better to do than arrest people without due cause. And the record of your arrest will never go away. The fact that you were held in custody without charge for 28 days (or probably 90, soon) could easily cost you your job and your life could get destroyed like that <snaps fingers>.
It's not even a case of "if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to fear". EVERYBODY has something to fear now.
But that could be done anyway.
Check all PNC logs relating to an area, ask all the officers if they have seen Abu Hazas car, check CCTV. All that can be done now and has been standard practice for years.
ANPR is just an efficient way of collecting information.
It is what is done with that information that is important.
It is not the technology that arrests people.
See the post above re police incompetance, there is no excuse for that, but sadly it is nothing new.
Then you need training. BADLY. Ist no use having this information .. und jumping to conclusions .. the sort of mistake which led to an innocent man being MURDERED to be blunt in a Tube Train .. und ist "just a mistake - sorry" does not cut it to the bereaved family regardless of whether he was foreign or visa expired or all other excuses made to justify that appallingly horrific "mistake"
But then that ist the danger of a plethora of too much information. It does not save time as you have to sift through to get the correct "intelligence" - und perhaps more officers und admin staff instead of investment in plastic policemen und a cut down in sextuplet repetitive form filling might by streamlining it on a computer und saving by means of the cut und paste tabs for each "identical document" might be a more appropriate use of technology und time
Not exactly rocket science.. I do think I should run this country at times
Would be really wild politics show though 
Having worked in IT for government agencies for several years, I can almost guarantee that this system will be:
a.) leaky
b.) abused
The threat of inept data mining is all too real. As a body of data increases, it becomes possible to create ever more incoherent relationships. I have been asked to create reports from billions of records on several occassions to support a case - a case I should add, that if I had wanted to, could have equally been contended by the same body of data.
I have no problem with the philosophy behind any of these big brother projects - but the real weakness is the human numpty sat at the console who is open to all manner of fealties.
a.) leaky
b.) abused
The threat of inept data mining is all too real. As a body of data increases, it becomes possible to create ever more incoherent relationships. I have been asked to create reports from billions of records on several occassions to support a case - a case I should add, that if I had wanted to, could have equally been contended by the same body of data.
I have no problem with the philosophy behind any of these big brother projects - but the real weakness is the human numpty sat at the console who is open to all manner of fealties.
Lambo posting again 
Lambo cop said:
People Calm down and let’s go back to the grass routes....
Firstly let’s ask some questions....
1, Are you a current operational criminal ??
2, Do you have tax, insurance and a driving licence ??
3, Are you one of Osma's mates ??
4, Do you routinely carry an illegal firearm ??
5, Are you driving a stolen vehicle ??
I think you get the idea of the person ANPR is looking for…….
ANPR is a fantastic tool for monitoring the scum that roam this land, and might I add the rest of the world. I have had a stolen X5 on Austrian plates nicked in Austria ping up !
The government is not interested in the decent law abiding tax paying person that 95% of PHer’s are. If they were they would just read the Tunnerlers forum or even better the spotted forum……
Let’s all calm down and reflect on what ANPR is really about, helping me and my colleagues get those that need our attention. You can all sleep safely in your beds and don’t need to worry that the Hubble telescope has not been turned around and checking you have clean underwear on…..
Firstly let’s ask some questions....
1, Are you a current operational criminal ??
2, Do you have tax, insurance and a driving licence ??
3, Are you one of Osma's mates ??
4, Do you routinely carry an illegal firearm ??
5, Are you driving a stolen vehicle ??
I think you get the idea of the person ANPR is looking for…….
ANPR is a fantastic tool for monitoring the scum that roam this land, and might I add the rest of the world. I have had a stolen X5 on Austrian plates nicked in Austria ping up !
The government is not interested in the decent law abiding tax paying person that 95% of PHer’s are. If they were they would just read the Tunnerlers forum or even better the spotted forum……
Let’s all calm down and reflect on what ANPR is really about, helping me and my colleagues get those that need our attention. You can all sleep safely in your beds and don’t need to worry that the Hubble telescope has not been turned around and checking you have clean underwear on…..
Oh yeah. The if you don't have anything to hide you don't have anything to fear crap.
When can I start worrying?
- When someone nicks my numberplate?
- When someone clones my car to evade ANPR?
- When an ANPR misread puts me at the scene of a crime?
- When clumsy data mining puts me at the scene of two crimes?
- When they crush my car for no insurance even though I have insurance and the computer data is wrong?
- When the serious criminals vanish off your radar because they have legit registrations or hire cars?
- When the number of untracable registrations goes off the scale?
- When the police are so busy chasing vehicles with apparent documentation defects that they can't be bothered to attend by house burglary?
- When the technology becomes the master not the servant?
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