complications of speeding in a hire car
Discussion
In Bonnie Scotland for my sisters' wedding this weekend and was driving fairly sedately back to Edinburgh on Sunday morning.
On a dual carriageway that had a decent amount of traffic and was in the outside lane doing about 75 and the muppet in front was not interested in pulling over to let me past (you know the type - huge gap between cars on the inside lane, but choses to stay in the outside lane as feels he is still overtaking just because he can see the next car he will eventually overtake up ahead).
He eventually pulls in by which time I am a little peeved, so floor it past him only to spot a Scamera van on the grass verge about 500-800 yards away, at that point I was probably doing 85 (which was the max I reached all day).
If indeed I was caught it was of course my fault as I know the law and chose to break it, but I can't help feeling annoyed at the fact that I was enjoying a sedate drive in the gorgeous summer sunshine and the actions the other poor driver will go unpunished (he clearly disobeyed the highway code's directive on overtaking) but that led to me wanting to get out of his way which required me to up my speed for a brief moment.
Anyway, I understand that I would normally expect the NIP to be posted within 14 days - is that correct? Given that I was driving a hire car, I presume that translates to 14 days for Europcar to receive it, and the goodness knows how long for them to pass it to me.
Does anyone have any experience of this? What should I expect?
On a dual carriageway that had a decent amount of traffic and was in the outside lane doing about 75 and the muppet in front was not interested in pulling over to let me past (you know the type - huge gap between cars on the inside lane, but choses to stay in the outside lane as feels he is still overtaking just because he can see the next car he will eventually overtake up ahead).
He eventually pulls in by which time I am a little peeved, so floor it past him only to spot a Scamera van on the grass verge about 500-800 yards away, at that point I was probably doing 85 (which was the max I reached all day).
If indeed I was caught it was of course my fault as I know the law and chose to break it, but I can't help feeling annoyed at the fact that I was enjoying a sedate drive in the gorgeous summer sunshine and the actions the other poor driver will go unpunished (he clearly disobeyed the highway code's directive on overtaking) but that led to me wanting to get out of his way which required me to up my speed for a brief moment.
Anyway, I understand that I would normally expect the NIP to be posted within 14 days - is that correct? Given that I was driving a hire car, I presume that translates to 14 days for Europcar to receive it, and the goodness knows how long for them to pass it to me.
Does anyone have any experience of this? What should I expect?
gixxer1000 said:
Anyway, I understand that I would normally expect the NIP to be posted within 14 days - is that correct? Given that I was driving a hire car, I presume that translates to 14 days for Europcar to receive it, and the goodness knows how long for them to pass it to me.
Absolutely spot on.
The car owner (hire company) will receive the NIP. Once they have done so, they will search their records and disclose the hirer at the time on the Section 172 notice (they cannot tell who the driver was because they were not there at the time).
The Police will receive the Section 172 notice with the hirers details and then send out another NIP to the hirer to disclose the drivers details.
As long as the 1st NIP is sent to the hire company within the 15 days allowed (including date of offence), the time spent tracking the actual driver is not limited unless it goes out of time under Statutory Limitations on Proceedings which is 6 months.
gixxer1000 said:
Does anyone have any experience of this? What should I expect?
You should expect to receive an NIP within a six week period I would imagine by the time the hire company and the Police process department have the necessary information to act on.
I got flashed in a hire car while back, I told the hire company ( Enterprise ) when I got back and the chap on the desk said that head office would normally ring the hirer as soon as they heard anything... dont know if its common practice but it put my mind at ease after the 14 days had passed.
toad_oftoadhall said:
So if U refuse to pay do they refuse to let yuo have your endorsments?
Hehe.....
This is a valid point. What incentive is there for you to pay?
Suspect that in signing the hire agreement you agree to pay any charges relating to any offence the car is involved in.
They'll just take it off your CC.....
madcop said:
gixxer1000 said:
Anyway, I understand that I would normally expect the NIP to be posted within 14 days - is that correct? Given that I was driving a hire car, I presume that translates to 14 days for Europcar to receive it, and the goodness knows how long for them to pass it to me.
Absolutely spot on.
The car owner (hire company) will receive the NIP. Once they have done so, they will search their records and disclose the hirer at the time on the Section 172 notice (they cannot tell who the driver was because they were not there at the time).
The Police will receive the Section 172 notice with the hirers details and then send out another NIP to the hirer to disclose the drivers details.
As long as the 1st NIP is sent to the hire company within the 15 days allowed (including date of offence), the time spent tracking the actual driver is not limited unless it goes out of time under Statutory Limitations on Proceedings which is 6 months.
Just returned from holiday to find this NIP. Seems I made it all the way up to 96mph on this overtaking manoever!
Confused by the dates on the NIP, in relation to the 15 days discussed above:
Date of NIP Issue: 5th August 2003
Date of alleged offence: 6th July 2003
Doesn't this break the 15 day rule?
Any thoughts Madcop?
>> Edited by gixxer1000 on Wednesday 20th August 12:49
>> Edited by gixxer1000 on Wednesday 20th August 12:50
IIRC no, it doesnt break the rules as its a hire car, they have 14 days to serve notice on the owners of the car not the driver. they have much more time in these sort of cases (cant remember how much) to take into account the time it takes to find the driver and serve another NIP
>> Edited by chief-0369 on Wednesday 20th August 12:56
>> Edited by chief-0369 on Wednesday 20th August 12:56
gixxer1000 said:
Date of NIP Issue: 5th August 2003
Date of alleged offence: 6th July 2003
Doesn't this break the 15 day rule?
Unfortunately not. 5/8 is the date of issue of the completely new and separate NIP that you are getting as a result of the hire company identifying you as the hirer of the vehicle.
chief-0369 said:
IIRC no, it doesnt break the rules as its a hire car, they have 14 days to serve notice on the owners of the car not the driver. they have much more time in these sort of cases (cant remember how much) to take into account the time it takes to find the driver and serve another NIP
>> Edited by chief-0369 on Wednesday 20th August 12:56
Does that mean that they would have served the first NIP to the hire car company, with a date earlier than the 5th August, then served this NIP to me on 5th August after being told who had rented the car at the time?
gixxer1000 said:
Does that mean that they would have served the first NIP to the hire car company, with a date earlier than the 5th August, then served this NIP to me on 5th August after being told who had rented the car at the time?
Yes.
Also, as the hire company has returned the 1st NIP identifying you, its too late to argue that the original NIP was out-of-date if it was dated later than 21st July.
pdV6 said:
Also, as the hire company has returned the 1st NIP identifying you, its too late to argue that the original NIP was out-of-date if it was dated later than 21st July.
Not so.
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Section 1.-
(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, where a person is prosecuted for an offence to which this section applies, he is not to be convicted unless—
(c) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.
www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880053_en_2.htm#mdiv1
gixxer1000 said:
In Bonnie Scotland for my sisters' wedding this weekend and was driving fairly sedately back to Edinburgh on Sunday morning.
On a dual carriageway that had a decent amount of traffic and was in the outside lane doing about 75 and the muppet in front was not interested in pulling over to let me past (you know the type - huge gap between cars on the inside lane, but choses to stay in the outside lane as feels he is still overtaking just because he can see the next car he will eventually overtake up ahead).
He eventually pulls in by which time I am a little peeved, so floor it past him only to spot a Scamera van on the grass verge about 500-800 yards away, at that point I was probably doing 85 (which was the max I reached all day).
If indeed I was caught it was of course my fault as I know the law and chose to break it, but I can't help feeling annoyed at the fact that I was enjoying a sedate drive in the gorgeous summer sunshine and the actions the other poor driver will go unpunished (he clearly disobeyed the highway code's directive on overtaking) but that led to me wanting to get out of his way which required me to up my speed for a brief moment.
[snip]
On 'being overtaken' the Highway Code states:
"
144 Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
"
I would appear that the tenor of this paragraph is about the 'overtaken vehicle' being already in a left-hand lane to the 'overtaking vehicle'.
The Code goes on:
"
145 Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.
"
Here the Code specifically refers to 'a long queue of traffic', not to a solitary vehicle.
BTW - these are not 'rules' (nor "directives") only advice. 'Rules' are shown with red headings in the HC, these have black headings.
Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Saturday 30th August 08:06
I live overseas and when I come to UK I always rent on my foreign license so as to keep my UK one points-free, just in case. I was apparently flashed last year on one of my trips although I have no knowledge of it.
After some months the charge (fine?) comes up on my Amex from the rental company. I told Amex I refused to pay a charge I hadn't signed for and they charged it back to the rental company. Never heard any more.
After some months the charge (fine?) comes up on my Amex from the rental company. I told Amex I refused to pay a charge I hadn't signed for and they charged it back to the rental company. Never heard any more.
bjc said:
Also got to watch out for hire companies adding an "administration charge" for dealing with offences now.
I know enterprise do, and they must have a lot of admin as it's £50
We've got several employees specifically to process parking fines, speeding tickets and CC fines. Those employees obviously need to get paid, and you wouldn't believe the number of offences we have to process. £50 is a maximum - it's usually £25. We also now make each renter aware of the admin fee when they sign the contract, and get an initial from them to confirm they accept.
As for refusing to pay it if you get a ticket, we just send your credit card company a copy of the contract & offence, and they will uphold the charge.
jeffreyarcher said:
Those employees obviously need to get paid, ... £50 is a maximum - it's usually £25.
£300 / hour. Pull the other one.
Takes a bit more than 10 minutes - have to check the computer to see who had the car, manually pull the contract from the files (over 6000 vehicles in the London region alone - LOTS of paperwork), fill out the relevent form(s) from the authorities, and contact the customer to let them know the situation.
Hire companies are businesses, not charities - we have overheads, and should not have to incur costs if people misuse our service.
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