Need some advice
Discussion
Hi, first post so go easy on me and sorry it's a bit long winded! Myself and my work colleague share a company van and on the 24th October it was caught in a speed camera doing 53 in a 40 limit. We both drive the van and neither of us can remember who was driving on the day in question. Our HR department are saying that one of us will have to own up and carry the can or else! We have racked our brains and told HR that in all honesty we cannot remember who was driving at the time. My boss is trying to intimidate us with veiled threats if we don't own up but both of us are too long in the tooth to worry too much about that and have told him to do what he likes. Question is, where do we stand? Any help much appreciated.
keybored said:
Question is, where do we stand? Any help much appreciated.
In the corner like naughty school boys
Sorry but there are two issues here
Number one I dont believe you cant remember!
But
Number two is different if you are trying the we cant remember game? There maybe some mileage there but dont count on it
I'm quite serious that neither of us can remember who was driving as we frequently swap over halfway through the day. God, can't even remember who was driving last Friday never mind 2 weeks ago. If I knew for definite it was me I would hold my hands up and say "fair cop" and I know my colleague would do the same.
Boosted LS1 said:
Well they can't prosecute you both so perhaps you could say you sat in your mates lap and did the steering while he worked the .... oh yes, pedals You'll get off with it but can you suffer the accusations?
Not a good defence - I am sure one of the (sadly few remaining) BiB will explain that in such a situation you could both be prosecuted. And yes I know you were joking...
DennisTheMenace said:
both plead not guilty , remember they have to prove you are at the wheel , an arse shot of a transit telles them nothing , let it go to court , do give up !
Should that be "don't give up?" By the way, our boss is a laugh a minute; he asked one of us to admit to it so as to save his sorry arse and to prevent any disciplinary action on ourselves. Told him in no uncertain terms what he could do with his disciplinary action; 2 biscuits docked from pay perhaps?!
deltaf said:
You could both say your boss was driving..... 
Paybacks a bitch aint it? lol
Hehe, never thought of that! Seriously though, seems like the company may incur a max £1000 fine for non disclosure of driver; hence the reason boss man wants one of us to own up; says the company will pay £60 fine if we'll accept the points; thus saving the company £940. Looks like we'll be having a look at the MD's new carpet on Monday!
- StreakySurely the company complete the NIP stating that the records state that the van was being driven on the day in question by either x or y. They give details of x or y.
The Police then have to speak to x or y and identify which was driving. If they can't surely it goes no further?
Or are companies expected to have up to the mnute records of who was driving what vehicle when? What happens if 2 employees are in a van. Employee C is driving but is tired so suggests to Employee D that D drives. They stop to change drivers, do they also have to phone the Office to say its 15:41 we are at xyz and changing drivers?
The Police then have to speak to x or y and identify which was driving. If they can't surely it goes no further?
Or are companies expected to have up to the mnute records of who was driving what vehicle when? What happens if 2 employees are in a van. Employee C is driving but is tired so suggests to Employee D that D drives. They stop to change drivers, do they also have to phone the Office to say its 15:41 we are at xyz and changing drivers?
The requirements for companies under S172 are more onerous than for individuals. If a company wants to run a "due diligence" defence, not only do they have to show due diligence, but they have to show that they did not keep a record of the drivers and that such a failure to keep records was reasonable.
For that to happen the company would have to return the NIP naming you both as either / or.
You would then both have to be NIPped, both return saying, "I don't know" or "It was him", and the police prosecute you both for S172, and get two 'guilty' verdicts.
IMO, in such a circumstance, the police are more likely to come after the company because:
1) A higher likeliehood of conviction.
2) AIUI, the 'going rate' for a company S172 is £500. I.e. more than they would get even if successful convictions were obtained against you both.
As far as what you do at the moment is concerned, it is entirely up to employer / employee considerations, i.e. can they extract sufficient 'revenge' to intimidate you into 'fessing up.
There is no legal sanction against you for saying, "I don't know" at this stage.
The legal decisions have to be made when you get your own NIP.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Saturday 8th November 10:13
keybored said:IMO that is extremely unlikely.
Boss tells me <...> that we could both get 3 points??
For that to happen the company would have to return the NIP naming you both as either / or.
You would then both have to be NIPped, both return saying, "I don't know" or "It was him", and the police prosecute you both for S172, and get two 'guilty' verdicts.
IMO, in such a circumstance, the police are more likely to come after the company because:
1) A higher likeliehood of conviction.
2) AIUI, the 'going rate' for a company S172 is £500. I.e. more than they would get even if successful convictions were obtained against you both.
As far as what you do at the moment is concerned, it is entirely up to employer / employee considerations, i.e. can they extract sufficient 'revenge' to intimidate you into 'fessing up.
There is no legal sanction against you for saying, "I don't know" at this stage.
The legal decisions have to be made when you get your own NIP.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Saturday 8th November 10:13
I think Chrisgr31 is pretty much corret there.
The company gets sent the nip, they send it back saying x,y,z was driving, and then they contact x,y,z, and try to stick it on one of them.
If no one knows whos driving, then who are they gonna fine, let alone give the bloody points to?
Its all rather sad and silly actually.
UK police 2003-Reduced to acting like Tax inspectors.
The company gets sent the nip, they send it back saying x,y,z was driving, and then they contact x,y,z, and try to stick it on one of them.
If no one knows whos driving, then who are they gonna fine, let alone give the bloody points to?
Its all rather sad and silly actually.
UK police 2003-Reduced to acting like Tax inspectors.
I appreciate all your comments and will keep you posted on the outcome. We do an annual mileage of around 40,000 and sometimes change drivers several times during a day which is the reason I've told management that it's impossible to remember who was driving on the day in question. I can see we'll be put under pressure on Monday but we're both adamant that we won't be coerced into making a confession just to keep management happy.
deltaf said:
I think Chrisgr31 is pretty much corret there.
The company gets sent the nip, they send it back saying x,y,z was driving, and then they contact x,y,z, and try to stick it on one of them.
If no one knows whos driving, then who are they gonna fine, let alone give the bloody points to?
Its all rather sad and silly actually.
UK police 2003-Reduced to acting like Tax inspectors.
Who? The company could get stuck on for failing to notify who was driving. That's why they are using the bullyboy tactics.
UpTheIron said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Well they can't prosecute you both ...
Not a good defence - I am sure one of the (sadly few remaining) BiB will explain that in such a situation you could both be prosecuted. .
Incorrect. Only *one* driver can be prosecuted for a single offence.
A single UK-licence holder has to admit driving, for the prosecution to be successful and the points to be...allocated.
No more, no less.
>> Edited by justme on Saturday 8th November 15:27
In this instance you should fall back on game theory and both blame the other. The boss can't believe you both, the BiB can't believe you both. The boss can't take sanctions against you if you finger your colleague, neither can he sanction your colleague. It looks as though it can't be proved either way.
You could sugar the pill and both only say that you "think" the other was driving.
You could sugar the pill and both only say that you "think" the other was driving.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff