Top police driving instructor banned
Discussion
From The Sun (Scottish edition) this week...
As far as I have been able to determine, this chap is a top advanced instructor. His day job involves ensuring that Police drivers are safe at any speed, and I don't doubt that he trains drivers at far greater speeds than 98mph.
The obsession with numbers has made us forget that the only objective was safety. If this chap was causing a danger at 98mph, I'll eat my hat.
[press cuttings (including this one) available via www.safespeed.org.uk/press.html]
Best regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
As far as I have been able to determine, this chap is a top advanced instructor. His day job involves ensuring that Police drivers are safe at any speed, and I don't doubt that he trains drivers at far greater speeds than 98mph.
The obsession with numbers has made us forget that the only objective was safety. If this chap was causing a danger at 98mph, I'll eat my hat.
[press cuttings (including this one) available via www.safespeed.org.uk/press.html]
Best regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
Will he lose his job? I guess he now needs to be trained to drive at the speed limit 
.
Stupid isn't it?
Apropros of little at all, I recall something that Paddy Hopkirk said at a dinner he was addressing mnay years ago. He'd been stopped one winter for driving at "an excessive speed" on a snow-covered road. The BiB said that he had lost control of his police car several times whilst trying to keep up with PH (appropriate initials, no?), so PH must have been driving too fast and dangerously.
The BiB didn't recognise PH, who gently explained that if the officer had been driving with his wheels in the gutter - as PH had been - he'd have found more grip.
Streaky
. Stupid isn't it?
Apropros of little at all, I recall something that Paddy Hopkirk said at a dinner he was addressing mnay years ago. He'd been stopped one winter for driving at "an excessive speed" on a snow-covered road. The BiB said that he had lost control of his police car several times whilst trying to keep up with PH (appropriate initials, no?), so PH must have been driving too fast and dangerously.
The BiB didn't recognise PH, who gently explained that if the officer had been driving with his wheels in the gutter - as PH had been - he'd have found more grip.
Streaky
Regardless of the fact that he is a police driving instructor, he is a police officer and therefore, once he leaves his cushy little number at the college, he will be required to report others for similar offences. There are many advantages to being a police officer but there is a cost, as well. Not taking the mickey is one of the easier ones to pay.
I do not think it is a matter of setting an example so much as keeping the support of the population. This wasn't a simple slip of concentration, this was 38 mph over the limit.
Derek
I do not think it is a matter of setting an example so much as keeping the support of the population. This wasn't a simple slip of concentration, this was 38 mph over the limit.
Derek
Derek Smith said:
I do not think it is a matter of setting an example so much as keeping the support of the population. This wasn't a simple slip of concentration, this was 38 mph over the limit.
I don't see you point, this guy is probably safer driving at 94mph than most numpties are at 30mph. If they want the support of the population, then ceasing the persecution of motorists would be a good first move.
Derek Smith said:
I do not think it is a matter of setting an example so much as keeping the support of the population. This wasn't a simple slip of concentration, this was 38 mph over the limit.
The fault which results in the loss of support of the population does not lie with this chap, it lies with those who see speed limit enforcement as black and white.
And as far as "setting an example" goes, I'd say that the standards of excellence created in Police driver training establishments were the major cultural influence which enabled us to achieve the safest roads in the World.
You can't measure safe driving in miles per hour, neither can you measure transgressions in terms of the number of miles per hour over the speed limit.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
safespeed said:
You can't measure safe driving in miles per hour, neither can you measure transgressions in terms of the number of miles per hour over the speed limit.
To put that another way - we should not have a maximum speed limit on any roads? If the current limits are there to ensure safe driving and speed limits have no effect on that safety then they're useless aren't they?
Or are we saying that speed is one of the many factors that influence safety?
Obviuosly this chap is highly trained & quite capable of travelling above the "posted limit" in full & safe control of his vehicle.
Now I understand he can hardly get away with it once he's a member of the public. But I would expect the courts to show some consideration as to how "unsafe" his speed was.
I think you'll find he won't be getting a bollocking from the boss for speeding, but maybe a bollocking from the PR dept for making the "speeding" issue look even more of an ass than it was before.
To put it simply: This is where the whole speeding thing is totally wrong, it's not your "speed" but your awareness, hazard perception & ability that should be the deciding speed factor not an arbitaory limit.
Now I understand he can hardly get away with it once he's a member of the public. But I would expect the courts to show some consideration as to how "unsafe" his speed was.
I think you'll find he won't be getting a bollocking from the boss for speeding, but maybe a bollocking from the PR dept for making the "speeding" issue look even more of an ass than it was before.
To put it simply: This is where the whole speeding thing is totally wrong, it's not your "speed" but your awareness, hazard perception & ability that should be the deciding speed factor not an arbitaory limit.
_DJ_ said:
You can't measure safe driving in miles per hour, neither can you measure transgressions in terms of the number of miles per hour over the speed limit.
To put that another way - we should not have a maximum speed limit on any roads? If the current limits are there to ensure safe driving and speed limits have no effect on that safety then they're useless aren't they?
Or are we saying that speed is one of the many factors that influence safety?
Nah, speed limits are good. We need them. What we don't need is careless "digital" enforcement without discretion. See:
www.safespeed.org.uk/speeding.html
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
cptsideways said:
To put it simply: This is where the whole speeding thing is totally wrong, it's not your "speed" but your awareness, hazard perception & ability that should be the deciding speed factor not an arbitaory limit.
And of course the prevailing conditions and the manner of driving. I suppose vehicle ability should figure in there a little too.
It's easy to spot those using speed aggresively or carelessly unless you're a stupid camera.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
The post doesn't actually state that he is a police officer himself though it might lean towards by the use of "police driving instructor" and "fellow officers".
Either way, this guy obviously though that 98 was safe. Don't forget that people who who are taught to a certain level and different to people who teach at that level.
If the instructor was trained to teach Class1 and the TrafPol was Class1, I know who has the greater knowledge.
I can only think that the TrafPol had a "ride-along" that day (maybe an MP, Councillor, or a member of Brake!) which meant that he couldn't ignore such a speed for fear of public outrage!
A very sad, strange state of affairs....
Either way, this guy obviously though that 98 was safe. Don't forget that people who who are taught to a certain level and different to people who teach at that level.
If the instructor was trained to teach Class1 and the TrafPol was Class1, I know who has the greater knowledge.
I can only think that the TrafPol had a "ride-along" that day (maybe an MP, Councillor, or a member of Brake!) which meant that he couldn't ignore such a speed for fear of public outrage!
A very sad, strange state of affairs....
james_j said:
As a law enforcer, what he's effectively saying by driving at that speed is that the speed limit is invalid.
I agree with him.
Not at all. His actions show that he felt 98mph was perfectly safe for the particular road conditions at that time coupled with his experience and training.
Like Paul says, speed limits are needed. While fixed limits are not ideal, it what we have and the enforcement of the these limits should account for all the other variables that affect safety besides speed.
Mr2Mike said:
I do not think it is a matter of setting an example so much as keeping the support of the population. This wasn't a simple slip of concentration, this was 38 mph over the limit.
I don't see you point, this guy is probably safer driving at 94mph than most numpties are at 30mph. If they want the support of the population, then ceasing the persecution of motorists would be a good first move.
It's not a question of whether the speed was safe in the conditions or not. He is a police officer and the discretion he is allowed is only in dealing with the public, not himself. Look at all the fuss caused on this forum when it was alledged that Dick Brunstrom's daughter went a few miles an hour over the limit. She's no police officer yet there were allegations that Dick B used undue influence to get her off. I used to work with Dick in Sussex and he's an honest chap and would not ignore the trust that goes with the post, unlike this police officer going at 98 in a 60.
Dick Brustrom is doing what he thinks is right, despite what everyone here, and me, thinks of his priorities. The advanced instructor was doing something that he knew was against the law and therefore, for a person in his position, wrong, regardless of whether it was safe or not.
Safe speed is one thing but this is something entirely different. He is betraying a trust.
If you take pride in whatever job you do, how would you feel if, for instance, an electrician didn't wire up a fuse box according to the regs as, experienced bloke that he is, he knew is was probably quite safe?
I have ridden with many class 1 drivers and they are, as a group, the safest in this country. However, with the skill goes a certain attitude that means they don't take the mickey.
Safe or not, this bloke deserves his ban.
Derek
I have to have some kind of sympathy for this guy.
Unfortunately he wont be in the IAM any longer due to the ban, all that good work has gone to waste.
Another good guy bites the dust.
I'm not supporting 98mph in any speed limit but I'm sure this guy knows what he is doing.
Would be interesting to know how the Magistrates treat "standard drivers" under those circumstances.
Unfortunately he wont be in the IAM any longer due to the ban, all that good work has gone to waste.
Another good guy bites the dust.
I'm not supporting 98mph in any speed limit but I'm sure this guy knows what he is doing.
Would be interesting to know how the Magistrates treat "standard drivers" under those circumstances.
I apologise for becoming tangetial to the main thread but it seems to have developed into a general discussion on the what Safe Speed is.
In the Isle of man there is no limit outside of built up areas for non commercial vehicles (which are limited to a blanket 40mph). They do, however, have a rather robust policy of using careless and dangerous driving regulations to enforce the safety of the road. Having not been there for a few years I would be interesteed to discover how road injury and mortality compare to the UK as a whole-TT week apart-and if there are any three leegted men out there would they please contribute to this forum. I have in the past enjoyed driving at huge speeds in the IOM on the public highway with no worry of prosecution so long as I maintained the basic rules of STOP IN THE DISTANCE YOU CAN SEE TO BE CLEAR AHEAD and MAINTAIN FULL CONROL OF THE CAR AT ALL TIMES.
In the Isle of man there is no limit outside of built up areas for non commercial vehicles (which are limited to a blanket 40mph). They do, however, have a rather robust policy of using careless and dangerous driving regulations to enforce the safety of the road. Having not been there for a few years I would be interesteed to discover how road injury and mortality compare to the UK as a whole-TT week apart-and if there are any three leegted men out there would they please contribute to this forum. I have in the past enjoyed driving at huge speeds in the IOM on the public highway with no worry of prosecution so long as I maintained the basic rules of STOP IN THE DISTANCE YOU CAN SEE TO BE CLEAR AHEAD and MAINTAIN FULL CONROL OF THE CAR AT ALL TIMES.
Derek Smith said:
The advanced instructor was doing something that he knew was against the law and therefore, for a person in his position, wrong, regardless of whether it was safe or not.
Safe speed is one thing but this is something entirely different. He is betraying a trust.
If you take pride in whatever job you do, how would you feel if, for instance, an electrician didn't wire up a fuse box according to the regs as, experienced bloke that he is, he knew is was probably quite safe?
I have ridden with many class 1 drivers and they are, as a group, the safest in this country. However, with the skill goes a certain attitude that means they don't take the mickey.
Safe or not, this bloke deserves his ban.
Derek
Fair point Derek, works both ways I guess
Derek Smith said:
If you take pride in whatever job you do, how would you feel if, for instance, an electrician didn't wire up a fuse box according to the regs as, experienced bloke that he is, he knew is was probably quite safe?
If it really was safe I simply wouldn't care. Rules, as they say, are for the guidance of men and the obedience of fools.
I certainly don't think this guy should be banned, but the pressure is on due simply to the government ridiculous speed initiatives. Wether that speed was appropriate on not, the goverments lies imply that he must have been driving dangerously simply because he was exceding the speed limit.
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