Road closures by the Police
Discussion
Righty ho.
I put a post on a short while back about the M42 being closed for twelve hours.
Another poster has put one on about the M6 being closed.
We both recieved the information as to why it was closed, what was being done etc, along with the normal PH bulls
t about how insensitive we are for being bothered by the closure etc.
This may just be my imagination, my poor memory etc, but I don't remember this stuff from years gone by.
There were crashes, people died, always have, always will, but in my perception at least, there was always a priority to get the road open asap, get the traffic moving.
This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
Apart from I'm obviously a miserable git that doesn't like sitting in traffic, in my own experiences, why is this a British trait ? (to close major roads ..... the continentals seem to get them open pdq, and they seem to have more deaths than us)
I put a post on a short while back about the M42 being closed for twelve hours.
Another poster has put one on about the M6 being closed.
We both recieved the information as to why it was closed, what was being done etc, along with the normal PH bulls
t about how insensitive we are for being bothered by the closure etc.This may just be my imagination, my poor memory etc, but I don't remember this stuff from years gone by.
There were crashes, people died, always have, always will, but in my perception at least, there was always a priority to get the road open asap, get the traffic moving.
This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
Apart from I'm obviously a miserable git that doesn't like sitting in traffic, in my own experiences, why is this a British trait ? (to close major roads ..... the continentals seem to get them open pdq, and they seem to have more deaths than us)
Nigel Worc's said:
We both recieved the information as to why it was closed, what was being done etc, along with the normal PH bullst about how insensitive we are for being bothered by the closure etc.
This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
The crashes have to be investigated if they are life changing or a fatality.This takes time to do.t about how insensitive we are for being bothered by the closure etc.This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
Other incidents may cause damage to the road surfaces etc.Again this takes time to fix.
It's indicative of the blame culture we have now. There's no such thing as a RTA anymore, it's now a RTI (accident is now incident) and this subtle change is what it's all about.
Whilst it's a right PITA and has messed up my day more then once, I can accept it as if one of my family members was involved in one through no fault of their own, I would want the blame to be pointed at the right person.
Whilst it's a right PITA and has messed up my day more then once, I can accept it as if one of my family members was involved in one through no fault of their own, I would want the blame to be pointed at the right person.
Nigel Worc's said:
This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
So far this year there have been 2 motorway closures reported on here, which happened to be within a few weeks of each other. People died, which is why the motorway was closed. I'm sure that the families of the dead people are very sorry that you were delayed for one of those closures.Sometimes life is a b
h and I bet the dead people's families are genuinely sorry that fate dealt you such a harsh hand.Nigel Worc's said:
Apart from I'm obviously a miserable git that doesn't like sitting in traffic, in my own experiences, why is this a British trait ? (to close major roads ..... the continentals seem to get them open pdq, and they seem to have more deaths than us)
Are other police forces subject to the same levels of accountability and scrutiny after the fact, as are UK police forces? E.g. in law courts, coroner's courts etc? Are they subject to IPCC investigations for perceived failings etc? Do they investigate incidents to the same standards?zollburgers said:
Nigel Worc's said:
This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
So far this year there have been 2 motorway closures reported on here, which happened to be within a few weeks of each other. People died, which is why the motorway was closed. I'm sure that the families of the dead people are very sorry that you were delayed for one of those closures.And here's one from yesterday - the M23 in West Sussex was closed in both directions late this afternoon (Sunday, 12 September 2010) because of a fatal accident involving a motorcyclist. The motorcyclist was pronounced dead at the scene. There were long delays in the north and southbound carriageways between Junction 11 of the A23 at Pease Pottage and Junction 10, the A2011 (Crawley). The accident, which happened in the southbound carriageway at 4.10pm, has also caused congestion on the A23 to Handcross and to Junction 9 of the M23 at the Gatwick Airport Spur Road. Tailbacks were still evident at 7pm and the delays were expected to continue well into the evening.
I think that the issue affected motorists have with these long closures post 'incident', is that they don't happen in other countries.
If this iconic scene
were to happen today, the entire area would be surrounded by blue and white "POLICE" tape patrolled by London's finest, it would be crawling with forensics experts and fire investigators, and the milkman would anyway be prohibited from entering the area by Health & Safety regulations.Streaky
Is it ever known what the results are from these investigations? The case from a couple of months back where a boy crossed the M23 - what was the conclusion then? The one from yesterday, no doubt we won't hear from that one either.
The lack of information means that it is automatically assumed that it was a waste of time. Why don't they publish the actual results of the investigations rather then everyone having to assume that it was a waste of time and just an inconvenience?
The lack of information means that it is automatically assumed that it was a waste of time. Why don't they publish the actual results of the investigations rather then everyone having to assume that it was a waste of time and just an inconvenience?
EU_Foreigner said:
Is it ever known what the results are from these investigations? The case from a couple of months back where a boy crossed the M23 - what was the conclusion then? The one from yesterday, no doubt we won't hear from that one either.
The lack of information means that it is automatically assumed that it was a waste of time. Why don't they publish the actual results of the investigations rather then everyone having to assume that it was a waste of time and just an inconvenience?
I suppose its human nature that many months down the line the few reporters that may be at the inquest are probably the local crews and representing the interest unless its a high profile accident. There will be a mention in the local paper, probably.The lack of information means that it is automatically assumed that it was a waste of time. Why don't they publish the actual results of the investigations rather then everyone having to assume that it was a waste of time and just an inconvenience?
EU_Foreigner said:
Is it ever known what the results are from these investigations? The case from a couple of months back where a boy crossed the M23 - what was the conclusion then? The one from yesterday, no doubt we won't hear from that one either.
The lack of information means that it is automatically assumed that it was a waste of time. Why don't they publish the actual results of the investigations rather then everyone having to assume that it was a waste of time and just an inconvenience?
Because it has nothing to do with joe public, surely the outcome of any investigations are between those directly affected, surely someone dying is a good enough reason to close a motorway?The lack of information means that it is automatically assumed that it was a waste of time. Why don't they publish the actual results of the investigations rather then everyone having to assume that it was a waste of time and just an inconvenience?
zollburgers said:
Nigel Worc's said:
This is not my perception anymore, my perception is that motorways and major roads are closed at the drop of a hat, and kept closed for long periods of time, regardless of the congestion that is being caused.
So far this year there have been 2 motorway closures reported on here, which happened to be within a few weeks of each other. People died, which is why the motorway was closed. I'm sure that the families of the dead people are very sorry that you were delayed for one of those closures.Sometimes life is a b
h and I bet the dead people's families are genuinely sorry that fate dealt you such a harsh hand.From the above replies "our system" must just require more information from the Police, one difference I know of, from my froggy collegues, is vehicles will be removed to another location to recover dead bodies, ours seem to be done in place.
eybic said:
... surely someone dying is a good enough reason to close a motorway?
Maybe not in macro economic terms. After all, government puts a price on life and death.For example, NICE puts a price tag of £30,000pa on a "good quality year" when assessing whether a drug is "cost-effective". Let's assume that an individual is 30 years of age and has a life expectancy of 90 years. In NICE terms, the 'value' of that person's life is 60 * £30,000, or £1,800,000.
In 2004, the Aggregate Willingness-to-Pay (WTP) used by the UK government in risk analysis for the prevention of a road fatality was £1,384,463 (so the WTP today might approximate to NICE's figure).
That's less than the cost to the nation of thousands of motorists stuck for hours on end or forced into diversions - which themselves attract a cost in setting up and taking down (assuming they're sign-posted) and in wear and tear to roads.
Mind you, the Treasury does get extra tax revenues for the fuel used in 'waiting-with-engine-running', 'crawling forward' and 'diverting around the incident at a cost of tens of additional miles travelled'.
Streaky
Edited by streaky on Monday 13th September 10:19
Police caught colds on some jobs where offenders escaped being dealt with. As a result more stringent requirements were made.
Sometimes in my personal opinion it does take too long.
Most bodies are extracted prior to the road investigation being completed. We've only had one or two that were impossible to cut out that were removed elsewhere.
All the time there is legal comeback or complaints that will be upheld then the police will have to meet a certain investigative standard. They still do it quicker than any other death scene would be. Most of those are far more straight forward.
Many closures on SRN's are due to spillage or surface damage that must be rectified. Diesel being the worst,
Sometimes in my personal opinion it does take too long.
Most bodies are extracted prior to the road investigation being completed. We've only had one or two that were impossible to cut out that were removed elsewhere.
All the time there is legal comeback or complaints that will be upheld then the police will have to meet a certain investigative standard. They still do it quicker than any other death scene would be. Most of those are far more straight forward.
Many closures on SRN's are due to spillage or surface damage that must be rectified. Diesel being the worst,
Easy to forget that last year, somebody killed his partner, then staged a road accident to make it look as though she had been killed in the car. This has to be looked into.
However, when the roads near me have been closed it has often been a major inconvenience, due to them being the ONLY routes, aside from really narrow lanes, which are soon blocked when everybody takes to them.
I am presently working with a group on local emergency planning, and intend to urge that some minor routes should become one way in these situations - presently, the police and highways authority cannot get their act together to organise this due to administrative issues.
Our local BBC radio station is not allowed to give out diversionary routes unless recommended by police - who have their hands full, and lack man power to check into other routes.
When they do, they in turn will not actually divert traffic - they say that is the responsibility of the HA, and yet most local people would be aware of what needs to be done - i.e. which direction has the heaviest traffic flow for a given time of day.
Getting the HA to respond to an incident in a rural area like Cumbria in a timely fashion is nearly impossible, therefore nothing gets done.
Now all the police houses have gone, not many of our policemen and women are "local" so may not know the best alternative routes.
Whether local emergency planning can overcome these difficulties remains to be seen - there seems to be too much red tape at present!
However, when the roads near me have been closed it has often been a major inconvenience, due to them being the ONLY routes, aside from really narrow lanes, which are soon blocked when everybody takes to them.
I am presently working with a group on local emergency planning, and intend to urge that some minor routes should become one way in these situations - presently, the police and highways authority cannot get their act together to organise this due to administrative issues.
Our local BBC radio station is not allowed to give out diversionary routes unless recommended by police - who have their hands full, and lack man power to check into other routes.
When they do, they in turn will not actually divert traffic - they say that is the responsibility of the HA, and yet most local people would be aware of what needs to be done - i.e. which direction has the heaviest traffic flow for a given time of day.
Getting the HA to respond to an incident in a rural area like Cumbria in a timely fashion is nearly impossible, therefore nothing gets done.
Now all the police houses have gone, not many of our policemen and women are "local" so may not know the best alternative routes.
Whether local emergency planning can overcome these difficulties remains to be seen - there seems to be too much red tape at present!
Mill Wheel said:
... presently, the police and highways authority cannot get their act together to organise this due to administrative issues.
Our local BBC radio station is not allowed to give out diversionary routes unless recommended by police - who have their hands full, and lack man power to check into other routes.[quote]And it's going to get worse as manpower dwindles away.
Streaky
Our local BBC radio station is not allowed to give out diversionary routes unless recommended by police - who have their hands full, and lack man power to check into other routes.[quote]And it's going to get worse as manpower dwindles away.
Mill Wheel said:
Whether local emergency planning can overcome these difficulties remains to be seen - there seems to be too much red tape at present!
You might be lucky in your area, Recent road planning in my area has been designed by someone living 60 miles away ... who admitted in conversation with me at a public meeting that she had never visited the area ... but had good statistics from surveys. I remarked out that I knew one of the lynch-pin surveys to be flawed (I actually said, "A pack of lies.")Streaky
streaky said:
Mill Wheel said:
... presently, the police and highways authority cannot get their act together to organise this due to administrative issues.
Our local BBC radio station is not allowed to give out diversionary routes unless recommended by police - who have their hands full, and lack man power to check into other routes.
And it's going to get worse as manpower dwindles away.Our local BBC radio station is not allowed to give out diversionary routes unless recommended by police - who have their hands full, and lack man power to check into other routes.
Mill Wheel said:
Whether local emergency planning can overcome these difficulties remains to be seen - there seems to be too much red tape at present!
You might be lucky in your area, Recent road planning in my area has been designed by someone living 60 miles away ... who admitted in conversation with me at a public meeting that she had never visited the area ... but had good statistics from surveys. I remarked out that I knew one of the lynch-pin surveys to be flawed (I actually said, "A pack of lies.")Streaky
I just discovered this week that the agent of the traffic chaos in Kendal and elsewhere in South lakeland does not drive, and uses public transport!
Explains a lot - I'll be looking to confirm this before I call for him to be sacked!
A while ago there was a major incident on the M6 near Carlisle/M74 - HGV crossover in high winds leading to a head on - 3 killed.
Some drivers were stuck on the motorway for 8 hours.
The local Salvation Army group walked up the carriageway giving out food and drink - but toilet facilities were absent!
It took far too long before somebody came up with the idea of unbolting a section of crash barrier, and turning traffic around so it could leave the motorway.
These are the sort of measures which somebody sat in a control centre puts off, thinking that the situation will resolve itself, which people on the ground should have more control over.
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