What are my chances of arguing this..?
Discussion
I have had confirmation from the hire company that my getting gatso'd a couple of weeks back on the A46 (Bath) has gone to prosecution... arse.
The hire company should have sent through by tomorrow the details of the offence.
The background to the offence was me going down the steep hill (A46) into Bath, which is a 50mph limit. At this location it is two lanes down the hill, one lane up. I can't think what my speed was, but i reckon i possibly let it slip up around 60-65mph.
The bugger was, that there were no other cars, no junctions near the camera at the time and it was 1am on a saturday morning.....
I thought that if i was grossly over the limit, then i would just take it on the chin, however, if it was only a few miles an hour over, i wondered about the idea of writing a politely worded letter - basically trying to wing out of it. Especially given time of day and background.
I mean would they follow it up to court for only a few miles an hour over..?
I guess i need to work out how fast it was, but just wondering if i am even p'g into the wind just thinking of this approach..?
Thanks.
The hire company should have sent through by tomorrow the details of the offence.
The background to the offence was me going down the steep hill (A46) into Bath, which is a 50mph limit. At this location it is two lanes down the hill, one lane up. I can't think what my speed was, but i reckon i possibly let it slip up around 60-65mph.
The bugger was, that there were no other cars, no junctions near the camera at the time and it was 1am on a saturday morning.....
I thought that if i was grossly over the limit, then i would just take it on the chin, however, if it was only a few miles an hour over, i wondered about the idea of writing a politely worded letter - basically trying to wing out of it. Especially given time of day and background.
I mean would they follow it up to court for only a few miles an hour over..?
I guess i need to work out how fast it was, but just wondering if i am even p'g into the wind just thinking of this approach..?
Thanks.
NIP arrived at hire place due at work today but was out office. DOnt know spped yet, haven't signed anything. Hire company wanted me to send in licence without me seeing it, but not that daft! 
Pretty sure it was me as time (1am was noted in exclamation by hire person, i.e. why the hell do scameras operate at that time of night!??? 
)
Pretty sure it was me as time (1am was noted in exclamation by hire person, i.e. why the hell do scameras operate at that time of night!??? )Buffalo said:What right have the hire company got to comment on the time you were driving?
NIP arrived at hire place due at work today but was out office. DOnt know spped yet, haven't signed anything. Hire company wanted me to send in licence without me seeing it, but not that daft!
Just be careful. If you argue with the wrong magistrate you'll get more points than the three you are bargaining for.
There are a lot of magistrates who have common sense - and a lot that don't.
You're better off saying that you were concentrating on the road, and with the absence of traffic and pedestrians and being keen to get to your destination were driving according to the conditions. Unfortunately you took your eyes off the speedo for a moment and this happened. You are very sorry for breaking the limit etc etc etc.
There are a lot of magistrates who have common sense - and a lot that don't.
You're better off saying that you were concentrating on the road, and with the absence of traffic and pedestrians and being keen to get to your destination were driving according to the conditions. Unfortunately you took your eyes off the speedo for a moment and this happened. You are very sorry for breaking the limit etc etc etc.
Buffalo said:
<...> haven't signed anything. Hire company wanted me to send in licence without me seeing it, but not that daft!
You are not supposed to do anything at this stage. The obligation is on the addressee of the NIP (presumably the hire compnay).
If the company gives you the NIP to fill out (some small companies do this erroneously, although I would have thought that a hire company would know better), do not return it. It is them who would then have committed the s172 offence (assuming that the addressee is not
Buffalo,
c/o Mega hire plc.,
Anytown.)
The hire comapny want my licence details to send back with the NIP - basically they have to send the hire agreement with the NIP, and i guess the licence details should be on it. (the hire was through work, hence them not having my details before).
Personally however, i dont want to give too much away at this stage. Do i *have* to send the licence details..?
Personally however, i dont want to give too much away at this stage. Do i *have* to send the licence details..?
Dwight VanDriver said:
But don't forget Section 172 (2) (b) ????
But, in my example quoted where the hire company have passed on their NIP, Buffalo has not been required by, or on behalf of the CC; the hire company has.
Not like yo to miss an obvious one like that, Dwight.
Buffalo said:
The hire comapny want my licence details to send back with the NIP - basically they have to send the hire agreement with the NIP,
The hire company have to do no such thing. They only have to supply the driver information.
The hire company's procedure probably does that to prevent the police coming back to them if the named person denies that they had the car; but it is not the law.
Buffalo said:
and i guess the licence details should be on it. (the hire was through work, hence them not having my details before).
There is no doubt a space on the form for the licence number, but if the company don't have it, it is 'not in their power to give'.
Remeber, these forms are usually generic and take account of the keeper being the driver, which in this case, he is not.
Buffalo said:
Personally however, i dont want to give too much away at this stage. Do i *have* to send the licence details..?
You do not have to do anything at all. The onus is on the NIP recipient, which you are not.
Once you get your own, then the responsibility rests on you.
Buffalo said:
I have had confirmation from the hire company that my getting gatso'd a couple of weeks back on the A46 (Bath) has gone to prosecution... arse.
I mean would they follow it up to court for only a few miles an hour over..?
Thanks.
The A46 is a "classic" camera but re-assured all camera locations have been reviewed and meet guidelines. Travelling over the speed limit at that location is therefore a very dangerous so yes they will quite happily take you to court.
The whole thing is a farce you have to resign yourself that you're a crinimal along with millions of others. Just make sure you do your bit to ensure it becomes an issue at the next election.
bluepolarbear said:
I have had confirmation from the hire company that my getting gatso'd a couple of weeks back on the A46 (Bath) has gone to prosecution... arse.
I mean would they follow it up to court for only a few miles an hour over..?
Thanks.
The A46 is a "classic" camera but re-assured all camera locations have been reviewed and meet guidelines. Travelling over the speed limit at that location is therefore a very dangerous so yes they will quite happily take you to court.
The whole thing is a farce you have to resign yourself that you're a crinimal along with millions of others. Just make sure you do your bit to ensure it becomes an issue at the next election.
Make it an issue to improve driver skills and knowledge more like.
Better educated drivers, better road safety.
I'd be inclined to tell the hire company to whistle, then hope they get confused enough to furnish wrong or inaccurate details.
Often hear lots of bravado about folk wanting their day in court, coupled with bullsh** about the injustice of camera locations. Reality is the rules are there, and will be applied come what may. So you want to come along and take up everybody's time, though probably lacking the balls to rant from the dock, for a simple offence. Time has to be paid for, and yours the only cheque book, so rather than £60 + 3pp, you'll get £150-£250 and probably 4pp. Is it really worth it ?
Some of us might well agree the locations and/or whole attitude to cameras sucks, but when presented with the blindingly obvious, and a guilty plea, we can't help you no matter how much we agree.
Often hear lots of bravado about folk wanting their day in court, coupled with bullsh** about the injustice of camera locations. Reality is the rules are there, and will be applied come what may. So you want to come along and take up everybody's time, though probably lacking the balls to rant from the dock, for a simple offence. Time has to be paid for, and yours the only cheque book, so rather than £60 + 3pp, you'll get £150-£250 and probably 4pp. Is it really worth it ?
Some of us might well agree the locations and/or whole attitude to cameras sucks, but when presented with the blindingly obvious, and a guilty plea, we can't help you no matter how much we agree.
bobthebench said:
I'd be inclined to tell the hire company to whistle, then hope they get confused enough to furnish wrong or inaccurate details.
Often hear lots of bravado about folk wanting their day in court, coupled with bullsh** about the injustice of camera locations. Reality is the rules are there, and will be applied come what may. So you want to come along and take up everybody's time, though probably lacking the balls to rant from the dock, for a simple offence. Time has to be paid for, and yours the only cheque book, so rather than £60 + 3pp, you'll get £150-£250 and probably 4pp. Is it really worth it ?
Some of us might well agree the locations and/or whole attitude to cameras sucks, but when presented with the blindingly obvious, and a guilty plea, we can't help you no matter how much we agree.
BUFFALO HERE!!:
Yeah, i hear what you are saying, I never intended to rant though... To be honest i dont think i have a strong case, it hardly shows that i was being observant now does it..?
But i am still interested in going to court. Its not that I am not denying i was speeding, although i think the offence in that particular location rather petty - given the road conditions. Just that,seeing as i am gonna end up with points anyway,i figure i might as well go and see what its all about. You never know i might learn something. If some judge is going to give me more points for that, well then so be it, but face to face has to be better than just having them it postal, no?.
I speed alot of the time and have accepted that my judgement of what i think is appropriate may not fall in with that of the law at times, so although i try to be observant and reasonably sensible, it is surely inevitable that i slip up once or twice. Three points is probably fair game, given the amount of time i slip over the NSL
Before scameras were introduced what happened then? Did all speeders end up in court, or did a fast-track system still exist then?
Have sent fax to hire company telling them to sort it themselves...
Thanks for the help there.... 
Have you considered that if the Hire Company pass your driver licence details to the Police they may be in breach of the Data Protection Act, if that information is revealed without your permission? It would be worth pointing that out to them to get them to hang fire on revealing your licence details.
It would seem to me they are obliged to supply the Police with your details as hirer of the vehicle, and then the police have to establish through contact with you whether or not you were actually driving the hired vehicle.
I believe with these NIPs there is a time limit of 14 days within which you personally have to be informed officially by the Police and served an NIP, not the hire company, best check on that.
Whatever happens tho' don't argue it, if it goes to a prosecution, take it on the chin and plead guilty and get the standard fine and points. Argue and you are likely to be punished for it with a heftier fine.
>> Edited by Tootler on Friday 9th April 22:20
It would seem to me they are obliged to supply the Police with your details as hirer of the vehicle, and then the police have to establish through contact with you whether or not you were actually driving the hired vehicle.
I believe with these NIPs there is a time limit of 14 days within which you personally have to be informed officially by the Police and served an NIP, not the hire company, best check on that.
Whatever happens tho' don't argue it, if it goes to a prosecution, take it on the chin and plead guilty and get the standard fine and points. Argue and you are likely to be punished for it with a heftier fine.
>> Edited by Tootler on Friday 9th April 22:20
Tootler said:
I believe with these NIPs there is a time limit of 14 days within which you personally have to be informed officially by the Police and served an NIP, not the hire company, best check on that.
Not so, the only time limitation for a NIP is that the original NIP must be sent (not delivered) to the registered keeper by recorded delivery, or first class post, within 14 days of the date of the alleged offence.
Tootler said:
Have you considered that if the Hire Company pass your driver licence details to the Police they may be in breach of the Data Protection Act, if that information is revealed without your permission?
Nope. Blanket exemption from the non-disclosure provisions for such purposes. Section 35 (IIRC) + other miscellaneous bits spread about.
kevinday said:
Not so, the only time limitation for a NIP is that the original NIP must be sent (not delivered) to the registered keeper by recorded delivery, or first class post, within 14 days of the date of the alleged offence.
<pedantic>
The NIP must be posted with the expectation of delivery by day 14 'in he normal course of post'.
Posting on day 14 is not sufficient. Nicholson v Tapp.
</pedantic>
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