UK flash - Non EU driver..who gets the points ?
Discussion
The resonse varies from force to force.
Some (including Essex) will threaten you with permiting (I don't know whether they follow through) unless you can show that he was insured to drive.
An 'any driver' policy may sort that, but most policies specify that the drivers must be UK licence holders which may still give you a problem. There is also Newbury v Davis which says that an owner cannot be convicted of permitting if the vehicle was lent on the express condition that the driver provide their own suitable insurance.
Some forces write to the named person (not neccessarily a NIP) and in the event of no response prosecute.
Some ask for proof, e.g. plane tickets, times etc.
I have read of people who have been prosecuted when no proof was provided, but won (not guilty) because there is no obligation on them to prove anything. It is for the police to prove that the information is untrue.
I have not read of anyone who has been successfully prosecuted for S172 when they named a foreign driver. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, of course. (c) JefferyArcher pepipoo forums
>> Edited by mattd on Friday 23 April 09:57
Some (including Essex) will threaten you with permiting (I don't know whether they follow through) unless you can show that he was insured to drive.
An 'any driver' policy may sort that, but most policies specify that the drivers must be UK licence holders which may still give you a problem. There is also Newbury v Davis which says that an owner cannot be convicted of permitting if the vehicle was lent on the express condition that the driver provide their own suitable insurance.
Some forces write to the named person (not neccessarily a NIP) and in the event of no response prosecute.
Some ask for proof, e.g. plane tickets, times etc.
I have read of people who have been prosecuted when no proof was provided, but won (not guilty) because there is no obligation on them to prove anything. It is for the police to prove that the information is untrue.
I have not read of anyone who has been successfully prosecuted for S172 when they named a foreign driver. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened, of course. (c) JefferyArcher pepipoo forums
>> Edited by mattd on Friday 23 April 09:57
Mattd
>>>>>most policies specify that the drivers must be UK licence holders which may still give you a problem.>>>>
Does not the converse apply in that most Policies/Certificates state " providing a person holds, or has held ... "A".. Driving Licence and is not Disqualified etc. Unless, as you state the UK Licence is stated (is this Politically correct - EU Community Licence?)then under the former a Foreign Licence is OK.
DVD
>>>>>most policies specify that the drivers must be UK licence holders which may still give you a problem.>>>>
Does not the converse apply in that most Policies/Certificates state " providing a person holds, or has held ... "A".. Driving Licence and is not Disqualified etc. Unless, as you state the UK Licence is stated (is this Politically correct - EU Community Licence?)then under the former a Foreign Licence is OK.
DVD
My friend has been asked in writing by a copper working for Essex 'Safety Camera' Partnership to produce insurance documents that names a non EU driver who was driving at the time of the camera flash. They also have written to the non EU driver.
Should the friend, produce insurance that does not show the driver named or is it better to not to supply?
How would you handle this one?
I would imagine your friend's best course of action is to write back and state politely that he permitted the non-EU driver to drive their vehicle on the understanding that they had their own insurance cover. This surely covers the question of causing / permitting.
Any further question of proving the validity or otherwise of any insurance surely falls solely to the actual driver. The only burden falling to the registered keeper is to identify the driver under s172 (as they have already done).
I suspect that Plod doesn't believe that the non-EU driver really was driving, and is now trying it on to see if he can pressure the RK into changing their story.
Any further question of proving the validity or otherwise of any insurance surely falls solely to the actual driver. The only burden falling to the registered keeper is to identify the driver under s172 (as they have already done).
I suspect that Plod doesn't believe that the non-EU driver really was driving, and is now trying it on to see if he can pressure the RK into changing their story.
Dwight VanDriver said:
>>>>>most policies specify that the drivers must be UK licence holders which may still give you a problem.>>>>
Does not the converse apply in that most Policies/Certificates state " providing a person holds, or has held ... "A".. Driving Licence and is not Disqualified etc. Unless, as you state the UK Licence is stated (is this Politically correct - EU Community Licence?)then under the former a Foreign Licence is OK.
DVD
DVD,
In the case of our fleet of vehicles, one of which presented itself in your driveway the other week, [1]
the insurance is a pan European policy [2] covering anyone with a valid licence driving any car owned or on hire to the company with the permission of the policyholder. No mention of UK nor EU licence thereof.
What this pans down to in practical case of my car is permitted drivers are FiF, Mrs FiF (but not Miss FiF even assuming she were old enough with valid licence) plus anyone employed by the global company with a valid licence [3]from wherever not just EU.
For example someone from an overseas subsidiary can drive one of our fleet on their own licence for as long as allowed by DVLA rules. If they wish to drive after that then they have to take the DVLA test to get a full UK licence.
Incidentally we put all drivers through a one day defensive driving course run by police/armed services instructors. Well worth the money and time spent.
all the best
FiF
[1] thanks for the brew and rgds to all @ DVD towers
[2] in theory this should be accepted by foreign hire car firms but in practice never is.
[3] we do check, again in theory it's the fleet manager's responsibility to check licences but in practice this is delegated to the regular keeper who should generate a record of the check. Bureaucratic I know but there it is.
Well trousered FiF...
When I was in "the chair" any suggestion of complication over Insurance, then to save any embarrassment at Court, I always wrote to the Insurance Company to ask under the circumstances in question whether they considered themselves "at risk" . If they did then obviously NFA if not then to Court.
Those contacted re "holds or has held a Driving Licence" said mattered not if issued in UK or Timbucktoo. This is also supported in my copy of Wilkinsons. Nor have I ever seen any case law on this point.
DVD
PS. Over the "high" yet from breathing good Northern air???
When I was in "the chair" any suggestion of complication over Insurance, then to save any embarrassment at Court, I always wrote to the Insurance Company to ask under the circumstances in question whether they considered themselves "at risk" . If they did then obviously NFA if not then to Court.
Those contacted re "holds or has held a Driving Licence" said mattered not if issued in UK or Timbucktoo. This is also supported in my copy of Wilkinsons. Nor have I ever seen any case law on this point.
DVD
PS. Over the "high" yet from breathing good Northern air???
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