Lucy Letby Guilty
Discussion
Hammersia said:
Her notes were mumbo jumbo open to all sorts of interpretations. If you didn't know what she was accused of you wouldn't have been able to make anything out from the notes.
Context is key though I don't think you can look at the notes devoid of that context - and with that context being that a disproportionately large number of babies were dying on her shifts, and her professional behaviour had already been flagged by multiple people. The notes.. really don't play well for her.Heck, even if you handed those notes to someone who had no knowledge of the case, gave them no information about babies dying or anything like that but just the information that they were written by someone who was responsible for providing medical care to sick infants I think a lot of people would conclude that the author was decidedly not doing well and someone should maybe check in to what's going on there.
I can't say for definite whether I'd have vote guilty or not on the jury - because I haven't seen the same evidence they have or heard the same testimony they did. But from what I have seen about the case? Nothing suggests to me that the jury got it wrong.
Flumpo said:
agtlaw said:
Hammersia said:
Her notes were mumbo jumbo open to all sorts of interpretations. If you didn't know what she was accused of you wouldn't have been able to make anything out from the notes.
"I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them and I am a horrible evil person ... I am evil. I did this."It reads more like a response to an allegation, a cracking under torture if you like. Particularly the "I did this" at the end, as if begging for the torture to stop.
I'm not aware of any serial killers, or child killers, who've written anything like that.
Hammersia said:
Flumpo said:
agtlaw said:
Hammersia said:
Her notes were mumbo jumbo open to all sorts of interpretations. If you didn't know what she was accused of you wouldn't have been able to make anything out from the notes.
"I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them and I am a horrible evil person ... I am evil. I did this."It reads more like a response to an allegation, a cracking under torture if you like. Particularly the "I did this" at the end, as if begging for the torture to stop.
I'm not aware of any serial killers, or child killers, who've written anything like that.
scrw. said:
A very interesting read, the whole case has been very odd from the start and I have never been wholly convinced that she isn't some kind of scapegoat to cover for some much larger institutional failings. Getragdogleg said:
scrw. said:
A very interesting read, the whole case has been very odd from the start and I have never been wholly convinced that she isn't some kind of scapegoat to cover for some much larger institutional failings. Gareth79 said:
This is being mentioned a lot on Twitter, apparently the article missed out huge amounts of evidence against her?
I've seen it on Twitter today and like the Jeremy Bamber case I suspect some people are nitpicking little things and ignoring the many other things that persuaded the jury to convict her.If people knew how badly the NHS is managed they'd realise stuff like this is not only not rare but also swept under the carpet to avoid trusts looking bad. Nurses aren't angels (some of them might be but some of them are definitely psychopaths).
This article reminded me a recent piece about Elizabeth Holmes (Theranos) on NY times 
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizab...
Trying to rebrand "the fraud" as "innocent young mom".
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizab...
Trying to rebrand "the fraud" as "innocent young mom".
ooid said:
This article reminded me a recent piece about Elizabeth Holmes (Theranos) on NY times
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizab...
Trying to rebrand "the fraud" as "innocent young mom".
She's a weirdo grifter who scammed a load of stupid greedy old men by putting on a deep voice. I'm not seeing much in common with Letby.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizab...
Trying to rebrand "the fraud" as "innocent young mom".
2fast748 said:
Gareth79 said:
This is being mentioned a lot on Twitter, apparently the article missed out huge amounts of evidence against her?
I've seen it on Twitter today and like the Jeremy Bamber case I suspect some people are nitpicking little things and ignoring the many other things that persuaded the jury to convict her.If people knew how badly the NHS is managed they'd realise stuff like this is not only not rare but also swept under the carpet to avoid trusts looking bad. Nurses aren't angels (some of them might be but some of them are definitely psychopaths).
1) What is reported in the papers is only vaguely connected to what was said in the court room.
2) I wouldn't trust the legal system very far. A lot of barristers are not very good, a lot of jurors are as thick as pigs' and their idea of 'beyond reasonable doubt' is probably less reliable than a weather forecast.
hidetheelephants said:
ooid said:
This article reminded me a recent piece about Elizabeth Holmes (Theranos) on NY times
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizab...
Trying to rebrand "the fraud" as "innocent young mom".
She's a weirdo grifter who scammed a load of stupid greedy old men by putting on a deep voice. I'm not seeing much in common with Letby.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/business/elizab...
Trying to rebrand "the fraud" as "innocent young mom".
Much like thieving, violent, feral scum that die while joyriding in a stolen car are suddenly remembered in eulogies as 'promising young footballers' for example.
Having listened to the podcast throughout her trial, that article puts down in writing everything I thought about her.
If anyone has ever had the bad luck to come up against an institute that try’s to save itself by throwing individuals under the bus, this case will look terrifyingly familiar. Never underestimate a trusts ability to completely destroy peoples lives for “the greater good” (or to keep the gravy train going).
This thread will die off again though, there’ll be a few new investigations so the reporting of anything that will be considered “pre judicial” will be banned and she’ll be left in prison.
She has one chance left of appeal and going off her defences record I’ll be amazed if they can come up with either any new evidence that wasn’t there before or accept she didn’t have a fair defence.
She was already clearly in a very bad place before she even went to trial and what she is like now no one knows.
I have every sympathy for the families of those poor children and everything they have been dragged through time and time again. I also have sympathy for Letby’s parents and everything they have gone and continue to go through.
The hospital at the centre of it all doesn’t look to have improved much despite the downgrading of its neonatal care unit and increased staffing.
No winners in this one, no matter how it plays out over the next few years.
If anyone has ever had the bad luck to come up against an institute that try’s to save itself by throwing individuals under the bus, this case will look terrifyingly familiar. Never underestimate a trusts ability to completely destroy peoples lives for “the greater good” (or to keep the gravy train going).
This thread will die off again though, there’ll be a few new investigations so the reporting of anything that will be considered “pre judicial” will be banned and she’ll be left in prison.
She has one chance left of appeal and going off her defences record I’ll be amazed if they can come up with either any new evidence that wasn’t there before or accept she didn’t have a fair defence.
She was already clearly in a very bad place before she even went to trial and what she is like now no one knows.
I have every sympathy for the families of those poor children and everything they have been dragged through time and time again. I also have sympathy for Letby’s parents and everything they have gone and continue to go through.
The hospital at the centre of it all doesn’t look to have improved much despite the downgrading of its neonatal care unit and increased staffing.
No winners in this one, no matter how it plays out over the next few years.
OutInTheShed said:
Having done jury service a couple of times:
1) What is reported in the papers is only vaguely connected to what was said in the court room.
2) I wouldn't trust the legal system very far. A lot of barristers are not very good, a lot of jurors are as thick as pigs' and their idea of 'beyond reasonable doubt' is probably less reliable than a weather forecast.
Can't comment on this case, or the legal system in general as that's way outside my area of expertise. But I would definitely agree on the highlighted section.1) What is reported in the papers is only vaguely connected to what was said in the court room.
2) I wouldn't trust the legal system very far. A lot of barristers are not very good, a lot of jurors are as thick as pigs' and their idea of 'beyond reasonable doubt' is probably less reliable than a weather forecast.
There will be plenty of crap barristers, that's a given, as in virtually every profession there will be those more skilled than others. Plenty will have scraped their exams and just blagging their way through work.
As for jurors, well... the idea of a jury sounds good on paper, but the reality is frankly terrifying. I've known a few people who've done jury duty who were happy to go into detail about the trial and what they discussed. Also how they knew just by looking at them that the defendant was guilty, before the trial had even started.
Without making any kind of commentary on this case specifically, I would not be at all surprised to hear about pretty much anyone who are working with babies in neonatal units slowly losing their minds when faced with them dying despite their best efforts, etc, and particularly after mistakes caused by themselves or others.
People dealing with that stuff, first responders too, basically have to have a constitution that defies logic. They're the strongest people in the world.
In that context alone I would probably give Letby a little more latitude in terms of whatever notes she wrote (I haven't read them) than e.g. an office worker, writing similar things. That's not to say that there should not have been an intervention to identify that she was troubled and compromised by events, but I feel like the NHS is so on its knees that it is probably the case right now that there are tens or maybe even hundreds of people who are not in a mentally fit state to be working there that are doing so through necessity or because no one is actually doing safeguarding, or there just isn't the resource to do so.
People dealing with that stuff, first responders too, basically have to have a constitution that defies logic. They're the strongest people in the world.
In that context alone I would probably give Letby a little more latitude in terms of whatever notes she wrote (I haven't read them) than e.g. an office worker, writing similar things. That's not to say that there should not have been an intervention to identify that she was troubled and compromised by events, but I feel like the NHS is so on its knees that it is probably the case right now that there are tens or maybe even hundreds of people who are not in a mentally fit state to be working there that are doing so through necessity or because no one is actually doing safeguarding, or there just isn't the resource to do so.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 15th May 10:08
IJWS15 said:
Surely if it wasn’t her but was institutional incompetence or similar the deaths would have continued.
Or did the institution suddenly fix all the issues they were previously unable to fix the day she was arrested?
So have no babies died there since?Or did the institution suddenly fix all the issues they were previously unable to fix the day she was arrested?
It's a neonatal unit, full of premature babies on the edge of viability.
A high percentage of them don't survive.
Durzel said:
Without making any kind of commentary on this case specifically, I would not be at all surprised to hear about pretty much anyone who are working with babies in neonatal units slowly losing their minds when faced with them dying despite their best efforts, etc, and particularly after mistakes caused by themselves or others.
People dealing with that stuff, first responders too, basically have to have a constitution that defies logic. They're the strongest people in the world.
In that context alone I would probably give Letby a little more latitude in terms of whatever notes she wrote (I haven't read them) than e.g. an office worker, writing similar things. That's not to say that there should not have been an intervention to identify that she was troubled and compromised by events, but I feel like the NHS is so on its knees that it is probably the case right now that there are tens or maybe even hundreds of people who are not in a mentally fit state to be working there that are doing so through necessity or because no one is actually doing safeguarding, or there just isn't the resource to do so.
The notes were insignificant to the case. It was less than a couple of minutes of the case from one of the longest trials in Uk history. People dealing with that stuff, first responders too, basically have to have a constitution that defies logic. They're the strongest people in the world.
In that context alone I would probably give Letby a little more latitude in terms of whatever notes she wrote (I haven't read them) than e.g. an office worker, writing similar things. That's not to say that there should not have been an intervention to identify that she was troubled and compromised by events, but I feel like the NHS is so on its knees that it is probably the case right now that there are tens or maybe even hundreds of people who are not in a mentally fit state to be working there that are doing so through necessity or because no one is actually doing safeguarding, or there just isn't the resource to do so.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 15th May 10:08
It got significant press coverage as it generated clicks and advertising revenue from titillation from the public. The significance from that evidence was actually that she had written that on confidential documents that should never have left the hospital, but she had stashed under her bed.
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