Rail Ticketing Issue

[elanfan]

Less than a month after my daughter's 18th birthday she takes a train (which is very rare for her) and pays a junior fare. She gets stopped by a ticket inspector and told she doesn't have a valid ticket for the journey. Apparently the ticket inspector snatched her NI Card from her purse (tho' really this is a separate issue) for ID. She was forced to give her name and address, to pay the full adult fare and forfeit the junior fare (the difference was only £1) and told she would receive a 'caution' and have to fill out a statement.

We have now received a letter from TIL who apparently act as agents for the train company. They are stating that she must send them a 'signed' statement giving her version of events and that the matter is now with their prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a 'Summons for inclusion in a forthcoming list in a Magistrate's Court. These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against Railway Byelaws (2005) or The Regulation of Railway Act 1889'

It further says that 'in any successful prosecution we will ask the Magistrate to award costs in favour of the rail Company in addition to any fine imposed' If any representation is not received within 14 days a Summons will be issued without further reference. There is nothing in the letter about a 'caution' but seems to be all about a prosecution.


I'm hoping the legal eagles on here can help with a couple of things. Can TIL ask for a written statement incriminating yourself/giving mitigation etc.Can TIL be ignored? Presumably they will list in a court in Cambridgeshire where they are based and we could ask for it to be transferred to nearer us. If we were to leave it in The Cambs court would the train company send the ticket inspector all that way to give evidence??

The mitigation is that she very rarely travels by train but here in Cardiff you can travel on a junior ticket by BUS up until your 19th birthday, a facility she used daily to get to college.

Daughter is now seeking a job having done quite well at college and it seems terrible that the age of 18 she will have a criminal conviction which she will have to declare having up until now a completely trouble free record.

Any help/advice/suggestions gratefully received.

[AGK]

"I wasn't on the train at the alleged time. I have no idea what you are referring to"

[petergukM500]

elanfan said:

Less than a month after my daughter's 18th birthday she takes a train (which is very rare for her) and pays a junior fare.

Is that like a junior adult fare or a junior kid's fare?

[elanfan]

"I wasn't on the train at the alleged time. I have no idea what you are referring to"


I think that option doesn't exist as she signed something for the ticket inspector and the website of TIL refers to the use of CCTV for evidential purposes.

[elanfan]

petergukM500 said:

Is that like a junior adult fare or a junior kid's fare?

Sorry Peter there are only 2 options kids and adult - she got a kids ticket.

[elanfan]

Anyone?

[ZOLLAR]

I'm fairly sure there was an updated thread her recently involving TIL or someone similar and he ended up receiving a conviction.

I'll have a search now.

[ZOLLAR]

It was TFL, so may be different.

Worth a read.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[anonymous-user]

Your daughter should not volunteer a statement and cannot be compelled to give one. She should, however, write a mitigation letter setting out why she did what she did. This is not obligatory but would be prudent. If the matter goes further she should obtain legal advice.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 8th August 17:13

[elanfan]

G - YHM

I have had someone offline suggest to me that their actions are disproportionate - in a sort of let the punishment fit the crime way. If they persist then to ask if they have an appeals procedure (why would they as doubtless they are on a fee perhaps based on convictions??) and that if that doesn't work take up with MP on the basis that it is disproportionate.

The 'crime' is apparently an absolute one so even an absolute discharge would still show up as a conviction on full CRB

I know my daughter has been a numpty but blighting a youngster's life before she has even got started seems wrong.

[tbc]

This would be laughed out of court

easy target

wouldn;t take it too seriously to be honest even though they try to make it serious

sleep easy

[elanfan]

tbc - are you suggesting this can be ignored as this seems contrary to some of the legally trained advice I am getting.

[tigger1]

tbc said:

This would be laughed out of court

I wouldn't be so sure, sadly. I've a friend (not me, an actual other person) who was convicted in court for something similar. He hadn't his railcard with him (wallet lost/stolen a few days earlier), but had collected the ticket using his old debit card before travelling (bought online beforehand - a new debit card had just been issued because of old one expiring, but he was able to self-collect the ticket with the old one ). He (wrongly) assumed that common sense would prevail in court, I think he was allowed confirm his name and no more, was pretty much a done deal that he was guilty regardless of circumstances.

[valais]

Given the "benefit" is only £1 - would they really push it to court?

[ZOLLAR]

valais said:

Given the "benefit" is only £1 - would they really push it to court?

Read the thread I posted, I believe that was in fact for £1.

[valais]

ZOLLAR said:

Read the thread I posted, I believe that was in fact for £1.

Blimey. I remember that thread. Shocking outcome in the scheme of things...

[elanfan]

From google searches TIL come up quite regularly - there appears to be some evidence that they take quite an aggressive stance with people being prosecuted for what seem to be genuine mistakes (some of these by the ticket offices and even in these cases it is STILL the customers fault).

Sounds like they need the equivalent of POPLA and then perhaps trivial and genuine cases may get a fairer outcome (the actual offence being absolute)

[tbc]

meanwhile some Middle Eastern boyos are probably plotting to blow up somewhere and the plod are getting their knobs in a twist over a quid

someone pull the chain

[agtlaw]

elanfan said:

Less than a month after my daughter's 18th birthday she takes a train (which is very rare for her) and pays a junior fare. She gets stopped by a ticket inspector and told she doesn't have a valid ticket for the journey. Apparently the ticket inspector snatched her NI Card from her purse (tho' really this is a separate issue) for ID. She was forced to give her name and address, to pay the full adult fare and forfeit the junior fare (the difference was only £1) and told she would receive a 'caution' and have to fill out a statement.

We have now received a letter from TIL who apparently act as agents for the train company. They are stating that she must send them a 'signed' statement giving her version of events and that the matter is now with their prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a 'Summons for inclusion in a forthcoming list in a Magistrate's Court. These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against Railway Byelaws (2005) or The Regulation of Railway Act 1889'

It further says that 'in any successful prosecution we will ask the Magistrate to award costs in favour of the rail Company in addition to any fine imposed' If any representation is not received within 14 days a Summons will be issued without further reference. There is nothing in the letter about a 'caution' but seems to be all about a prosecution.


I'm hoping the legal eagles on here can help with a couple of things. Can TIL ask for a written statement incriminating yourself/giving mitigation etc.Can TIL be ignored? Presumably they will list in a court in Cambridgeshire where they are based and we could ask for it to be transferred to nearer us. If we were to leave it in The Cambs court would the train company send the ticket inspector all that way to give evidence??

The mitigation is that she very rarely travels by train but here in Cardiff you can travel on a junior ticket by BUS up until your 19th birthday, a facility she used daily to get to college.

Daughter is now seeking a job having done quite well at college and it seems terrible that the age of 18 she will have a criminal conviction which she will have to declare having up until now a completely trouble free record.

Any help/advice/suggestions gratefully received.

This is a serious matter and she should see a solicitor immediately about this.

There is no obligation to provide a statement. Her solicitor will advise as to whether it is in her interests to give a statement and what should / shouldn't be in it.

You shouldn't ignore it as you'll just get a summons. The letter says this.

If the case proceeds to court (not inevitable) then it will be in Cambridgeshire and it will not be moved to anywhere more convenient to you. It might be possible to deal with it by post.

I can't stress enough that you should see a solicitor in person before responding. Your solicitor will try to get the case dropped but if an identified adult buys a child's ticket then clearly there is a prima facie case to answer.

[agtlaw]

Breadvan72 said:

1. Your daughter should not volunteer a statement

2. and cannot be compelled to give one.

3. She should, however, write a mitigation letter setting out why she did what she did. This is not obligatory but would be prudent.

4. If the matter goes further she should obtain legal advice.

1. Why not? If she wants a caution or has a defence then she probably should.

2. Correct

3. This is hard to understand and not something I agree with. Unclear why a mitigation letter would be written before charge. If a mitigation letter is to be written then it is far far better that it is written by a solicitor because then at least it won't be exhibited at trial.

4. See a solicitor now. The solicitor will do everything possible to avoid conviction or get the best possible outcome. Writing a mitigation letter before seeking professional help would be very very silly.

I often get clients who have basically fked things up by either saying stupid things to the police or writing ridiculous letters to the police. Think you won't see that letter in court? Think again.

It is essential to get advice now. The last thing any lawyer wants is a mess that could have been avoided by carefully dealing with the problem at an earlier stage.