Continuous Insurance crap

[Nigel Worc's]

I could be being wound up here, but this is stupid enough for me to believe it.

It would appear that those who sit in ivory towers dreaming up more ways of fining vehicle owners for just owning vehicles, have been at it again.

http://www.biba.org.uk/PDFfiles/CIELeaflet2010.pdf

My question, to anyone that knows about this stuff is :

Given that unless a vehicle is declared sorn , it will require insurance ......

What about those of us who own vehicles that haven't been taxed recently enough to need sorning, but the vehicle is still redgistered to us, and will show up on the MID as uninsured ?

[Nigel Worc's]

R1 Loon said:

I'm pretty certain that this scheme wasn't introduced to specifically upset you. It is another tool in the fight to get uninsured drivers off the road, which can only be a good thing (saaby please don't start asking ridiculous question sabout changing dustcaps etc).

The first thing that will happen is that a letter will be sent to you next year advising you that your vehicle is uninsured and give you the options.

Declaring SORN takes 3 minutes online at this website:

http://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortalApp/appl...

Once done that you'll receive a reminder every year, just like your Road Tax reminders and it will take 3 minutes to renew it. I do it on my trackbike and it's an absolute doddle.

Is that 3 minutes so critical to your life, that it's worth uninsured drivers causing the heartache they do, as well as costing upwards of £500million per annum?

If it is so critical to you, then expect a FPN through the post, but the choice is yours. Another suggestion is that 99.99% of the adult population have mobile phones, PDAs or diary planners, so pop a reminder in there for yourself two weeks before it's due and you won;t have th eproblem of forgetting to do it, even if the reminder doesn't arrive (never happened in my experience).

I think you missunderstand my particular question, although you presume correctly that I'm anti rules for rules sake on motorised vehicle owners.

I have a motorcycle, it was first redg in 1980, it was last taxed in 1986, when I bought this bike a couple of years ago (I was actually it's first owner too, which is why I wanted it, but that's another story), I redgistered it to myself (of course), and promptly took it apart to rebuild it .... it's only been a couple of years, so it's still in pieces ...... I contacted dvla to "sorn" it as soon as I recieved the V5C.

Dvla informed me it couldn't be sorned, as it hadn't been taxed since 1999 or 2000 (something like that), so until I tax it, it wont need sorning, and in fact, cannot be sorned.

So ..... I have a vehicle redg to me, that cannot be sorned, that will show up as unisured on the MID ...... hence the question

[Nigel Worc's]

R1 Loon said:

Nigel Worc's said:

I think you missunderstand my particular question, although you presume correctly that I'm anti rules for rules sake on motorised vehicle owners.

I have a motorcycle, it was first redg in 1980, it was last taxed in 1986, when I bought this bike a couple of years ago (I was actually it's first owner too, which is why I wanted it, but that's another story), I redgistered it to myself (of course), and promptly took it apart to rebuild it .... it's only been a couple of years, so it's still in pieces ...... I contacted dvla to "sorn" it as soon as I recieved the V5C.

Dvla informed me it couldn't be sorned, as it hadn't been taxed since 1999 or 2000 (something like that), so until I tax it, it wont need sorning, and in fact, cannot be sorned.

So ..... I have a vehicle redg to me, that cannot be sorned, that will show up as unisured on the MID ...... hence the question

Then ring up your local DVLA office and ask them what to do. These things have been thought through. I have a bike in pieces in my garage too, my trackbike and whilst it has a V5C it has no MOT, no tax (SORNed) and no insurance, nor will it ever have any of those.

saaby93 said:

SOMEONE TELL ME THIS HASNT COME IN YET
So what happens to everyone that has a taxed project in their back yard which they insure for the few days they want to take it out on the road?
Are they about to get a letter saying their P&J is not insured (which they already know) and so a NIP is due (which they dont)?

Read the fking .pdf before going off on a "oh woe is me" rant.

Once again, you've gone for the absolute minority issue and decided that because a general leaflet doesn't cover the minutiae of the detail, then it's flawed. Your local DVLA office will have an answer for this.

And it's not a NIP its a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN)

Edited by R1 Loon on Thursday 2nd December 22:53

Well excuse me for asking lol, I thought that's what this place was for ..... no ?

And it'll be thought through ......ps off lol, none of the crap introduced recently seems to have been thought through, cause as much crap as you can for everyday people, make it difficult to understand, then fine them for not adhering to it, when they weren't doing anything wrong in the first place......meanwhile...scrotes please carry on as normal !

[Nigel Worc's]

R1 Loon said:

Nigel Worc's said:

Well excuse me for asking lol, I thought that's what this place was for ..... no ?

And it'll be thought through ......ps off lol, none of the crap introduced recently seems to have been thought through, cause as much crap as you can for everyday people, make it difficult to understand, then fine them for not adhering to it, when they weren't doing anything wrong in the first place......meanwhile...scrotes please carry on as normal !

I've not had a pop at you.

IME the Local DVLA office have been excellent and dealt with things very effectively.

All you need to do is declare it SORN, that can be done online (link provided previously), or downloading it here and sending it in the post, or going to your local DVLA office.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_...

It's hardly rocket science and looks like a piece of piss to me. BTW, I'd appreciate not being told to "ps off" unless you feel that's an appropriate way of conducting yourself. I have done little more than post facts, which may contradict your opinions, but that doesn't warrant that kind of response.

I have to say that, whilst this forum can be helpful, it can also give out a load of duff info.

I thought you had a pop at me for asking ..... no ?

You're still missing my question here.

My bike CANNOT be declared sorn, so dvla told me when I asked, it will however show up as uninsured on the mid.

They may not even notice me (like they're going to miss the chance of a quick hundred squid), but as you quite rightly point out ..... I'm sure they've thought if this ....... I know a few people who will be in this position.

[Nigel Worc's]

saaby93 said:

Theyve missed the point that a lot of people prefer to keep their cars taxed rather than sorning/unsorning every few weeks or days.

I still havent found out .. is this happening or is it just BIBA putting this out?
I guess theyd love everyone to have 365 day insurance when they don't need it

Especially those on free "historic" tax

[Nigel Worc's]

R1 Loon

Unless things have changed since I bought the bike (which I doubt, as dvla have not contacted me/ tried to fine me), you CANNOT sorn a vehicle that hasn't been taxed since 1999 or 2000 ( I cannot remember which they quoted).

Once I've rebuilt the bike .... and it is taxed, it will "enter" the system, and will then require sorning if I don't wish to tax it at any time, until then, as far as sorn is concerned, it's outside the system.

It is however redgistered, and shows up as unisured on the mid

Sorn is done by dvla, this latest "fine everyone" seems, from the leaflet, to be initiated by another bunch, and then passed to dvla for enforcement.

[Nigel Worc's]

Getragdogleg said:

Wow, this topic is a can of worms !

I have an old car with MOT and (free) tax but no insurance, it is currently in the garage for the winter where it will stay until spring.

The insurance is six months during summer.
The tax is a year from when I insure it each year. (no point getting 6 months free tax, i might use it longer and insure it longer if the weather stays nice)
It is never SORN under current rules.


What hoops do I have to jump through regarding my taxed, Mot'd but not insured car when the insurances runs out ?

Who knows ? lol


From just that leaflet it would appear you'll have to hand the tax back and sorn it, I doubt in reality it'll be that easy, they'll eff something up

I suppose I'll just wait, and see if they find me !

[Nigel Worc's]

davidjpowell said:

FFS DVLA.

I have a taxed, MOT'd Saab, that I would like to sell, if I can get get it clean. eg get the time and the snow gone.

It's on the driveway, but as the insurance is on the car that has replaced it is uninsured.

Why should I have to piss about SORNing it in this circumstance. It's just a ballache. I can't imagine my situation is that unusual either.

Anyone fancy a cheap Saab? Comes with free Snow!

Because they have the power I guess !

[Nigel Worc's]

gareth_r said:

I hate all this legislation that penalises everyone for the actions of a few.

Time was were assumed to be law-abiding and "they" had to prove otherwise... now there are more and more situations where the premise is that we have to prove our innocence in advance.

Edited by gareth_r on Friday 3rd December 09:02

I think Gareth has it about right, along with the post that says most uninsured incidents seem to be incorrect insurance for the driver (on some technicality or other), rather than the car isn't insured

Still it's another way to fine the generally law abiding ...... I thought this coalition government was hoping to put a stop to this crap !

[Nigel Worc's]

ZOLLAR said:

Nigel Worc's said:

gareth_r said:

I hate all this legislation that penalises everyone for the actions of a few.

Time was were assumed to be law-abiding and "they" had to prove otherwise... now there are more and more situations where the premise is that we have to prove our innocence in advance.

Edited by gareth_r on Friday 3rd December 09:02

I think Gareth has it about right, along with the post that says most uninsured incidents seem to be incorrect insurance for the driver (on some technicality or other), rather than the car isn't insured

Still it's another way to fine the generally law abiding ...... I thought this coalition government was hoping to put a stop to this crap !

This is true however even if the driver has incorrect insurance for their purpose the insurer still covers the third party, with an uninsured driver this isn't the case (for obvious reasons).
You can say "oh well they can make a claim through the MIB" but believe me that isn't an easy or quick process.

Either something has changed, or you are misguided in your thoughts.

In 2003 I was hit by an uninsured driver, a young lad driving his fathers car, with his fathers permission, but not a named driver on his fathers policy, and without any coverage from his own insurance on his own car.

For whatever reason, the fathers insurer declined the claim ...... and it took me 3 years to obtain payment from the MIB.

The solicitor provided by my insurance company to deal with the whole incident thought this was parr for the course ...... at that time ..... things may have changed now.

I doubt there will be any benefit to the vast majority of us, I'll wager more people will be fined for not playing dvla's latest paperwork excercise, people who until now aren't breaking the law, than genuine law breakers will be caught.

[Nigel Worc's]

OK chaps .... I can put the initial question to bed ....although I am very much in the camp of "why the fk do we have to keep jumping through hoops when we aren't doing anything wrong in the first place ?" camp.

I've just spoken to DVLA, intially a chap called Colin, than one called Ian, both very polite and helpful.

OK

Sorn was intoduced on 31/1/1998, if you own a vehicle that hasn't been taxed after that date, then you are outside of the system, pure and simple, it would appear just because trying to deal with thousands, possibly millions of redgistration documents, that were issued when regulations were sensible, but the cars no longer exist, possibly the people they were redgistered to have died etc etc etc, isn't going to happen.


If you're outside of the tax sorn system, you'll also be outside of the new insurance ste ...... so as far as my motorcycle is concerned, there wll be no problems.

It is interesting to hear the professionals at dvla commenting, aparently the rules regarding this new system haven't been "signed off yet", so they have very little information to hand ...... and yes, these professionals think this is odd regarding something that is supposed to be happening next month.

So there we have it, more crap for the law abiding to do.

Edited by Nigel Worc's on Friday 3rd December 11:16

[Nigel Worc's]

saaby93 said:

Then to balance how many people will have to insure cars which currently dont need insuring?

None, providing the vehicle isn't taxed, from talking to the chaps at dvla, that is what this is all about, making sure that taxed vehicles have insurance.

It's the £100.00 fine that niggles me.

Introduce insurance discs you "dumb fkers", like veryone else seems to ..... or remove tax discs and leave it to computers !

I really can't see how this is going to impove anything, it's just going to ps off normal everyday people.

[Nigel Worc's]

R1 Loon said:

saaby93 said:

Right I realised what the issue is

The problem is one of uninsured drivers

The proposed solution is about uninsured vehicles

one isnt going to solve the other

Epic, look who's been trying to read up on the RTA and misquoting Streaky.

Technically the issue is over uninsured drivers, however, to be an uninsured driver you need a vehicle. Most people in this country insure their vehicle, rather than taking out block policies, such as Motor Trade policies, so your point is effectively moot.

This is not a solution to uninsured driving, it is on of many tools to try to make it harder to do - this point seems to continually pass you by. Very few things in life are resolved by one action, instead requiring many different approaches, which when combined go a long way to making the action too much like herd work.

Uninsured drving will never be eradicated, but minimising it is the best that can be done.

Some people may be inconvenienced by this along the way, but that is the price we all pay in life for a lot of things. I don't like security guards at supermarket entrances, but if it helps to limit the amount of shoplifting I can live with it, as it keeps prices down.

It was explained to me, this morning, that this isn't to stop uninsured driving.

It is to stop vehicles without insurance displaying a valid tax disc.

For what it's worth I don't agree with your "if it incovienences a few that's tough" stuff.

I am absolutely sick and tired of stupid rules, that end up criminalising many, because a few cannot behave.

Deal with the morons, leave the rest of us alone ....... please !

[Nigel Worc's]

tvrgit said:

saaby93 said:

tvrgit said:

DVLA said:

You can make a SORN using our online or phone service then you can apply for a refund of vehicle tax for any full calendar months left on the tax disc using an Application for a refund of vehicle tax with a tax disc (V14). This form can be downloaded http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItOnline/DG_40... or is available at any Post Office® that issues tax discs.

Or you can make SORN when you apply for the refund on the Application for a refund of vehicle tax with a tax disc (V14). Please return the tax disc and the form to DVLA, Swansea. The address is on the form.

So it seems SORN = no tax disk.

Thanks
Does it only say after applying for SORN you 'can' apply for a refund.
I cant remember who posted it now but it does look like you can keep the disc (unless they change it)

Nope it's still there...



Nope... OK One more go... I'll read my post again. Oh yes, it says that you CAN claim a refund (which by the normal rules of English grammatical construction implies that you don't have to if you can't be bothered). Then if you look at the link to download the form, it says you must send back the disk to claim a refund. So it does not look like you keep the disk.

They (the chaps I spoke to) didn't know about keeping or returning the tax disk, because as far as they were concerned, all the fine print hasn't been signed off yet.

They just knew that it wouldn't affect me and my bike !

I still can't see this helping the overall picture of uninsured drivers.

I still think, even after all these discussions, it'll make offenders out of people who weren't doing anything wrong before it came into force.