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thinfourth2

Original Poster:

23,587 posts

73 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
I have the situation that i am at the end of a private road along with 4 other houses.

This road is a bit crap so it needs frequent repairs.

For repairing this we have a battered old dumper truck which isn't even vaguely road legal.

technically I can't take it out of my garden because the road can be considered a public place as there is nothing saying the road is private. Though it is in scotland and i am pretty sure if you wanted due to the right to roam you could call my garden a public place meaning its illegal to mow my lawn.

Seeing i have zero faith in plod using common sense or discretion I want to know what i can do to make the road into a private place so i can avoid many many points for no insurance, no brakes, illegal tyres, no lights, no tax, no registration plates, no mot etc

Can i merely stick a cone at the end of the road saying "no access"

or is there some exclusion for road maintenance

ED209

2,919 posts

113 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
Public place - A place to which the public have access on payment or otherwise.

Put a gate up to be 100% sure. A couple of large notices at the entrance saying private road, residents only would probably sufffice though.

streaky

18,240 posts

118 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
Check the status of the road with the Local Authority. That the road is not maintained does not necessarily mean it's a private road.

BTW, the "Right to roam" is somewhat misunderstood ... even in the Northern Territories.

Streaky

Snowboy

3,243 posts

20 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
I'm pretty sure there's a clause in law about agricultural and industrial machines not needing tax and mot for short journeys on the road.
If you are just driving the short distance from your house to the potholes then you should be ok. Just get a man in a high vis and a roadworks sign.

deltashad

2,743 posts

66 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
Could you not ask the local council to take back the road?

This way you could have it tarmac'd and serviced for free smile


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tvrgit

7,943 posts

121 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
In Scotland (Section 151 Roads Scotland Act 1984) a "road" is defined as "any way over which there is a public right of passage, by whatever means" (the actual definition is a bit longer than that but includes references to excluding waterways but including bridges that hold the road up etc).

There are 2 separate types of "road".

1. A "public road" - this is defined in the Act as "a road maintainable at public expense". That means a road that has been adopted by the Council.

2. A private road - although not explicitly defined, this means a "road" (ie public right of passage and all that) that isn't maintained by the public authority. Note that the rights of public use and access are exactly the same, the only difference is "who is responsible for maintaining it". Road Traffic Act etc all still apply.

3. A private access. This is what most people MEAN when they say "private road" but legally, it isn't the same thing. THis is the only one of these 3 that could be a "private place" for the purposes of Road Traffic Act etc (but not always - for example an access and carpark at a supermarket is "private" in this sense but "a public place" in terms of the Road Traffoc Act).

So the obvious question is - So what constitutes "a public right of passage" and this unfortunately is where it gets confusing. The only precedent that I am aware of dates back over 100 years, and in that case, the judge said "everybody knows what a public right of passage is, and I don't need to rule on that in my decision". So not exactly helpful.

All of these definitions are slightly different from the Highways Act 1980 that applies to England and Wales, so be careful who you take advice from.

The kind of questions to ask to determmine whether yours is a type 2 road or a type 3 private access, are - does it have a street name? Does it have street lighting? Are the public free to use it (ie no gates etc)? If the answers to these questions are "yes" then it's probably a private road.

IF it IS a private road, then you can't just put up signs and gates and decide that it's now a private access and keep the public out.

Unfortunately, (and this isn't aimed at a particular council), even local authorities get confused between "public road" and "public right of passage" and I have been involved in cases where, for example, the Council have said "put up a gate" and then others have complained and they've had to take it out again.

I am not taking sides, I am just saying beware - this is a minefield, with many possible twists and turns in interpretation that have never been tested in court, and with many "experts", in local authorities and in private practice, who think they know, but don't.

There is indeed a rule that definitely applies to unregistered forklifts and, I think, to other industrial and agricultural macj=hinery, that says that provided is use of the road is limited in distance, then the vehicle doesn't need to be registered or taxed. Have a look on the directgov web site where I am sure there is information on this. I think that might be more productive than trying to argue whether the road is a road or a private access.



Edited by tvrgit on Tuesday 5th June 11:46

JumboBeef

1,730 posts

46 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
thinfourth2 said:
Though it is in scotland and i am pretty sure if you wanted due to the right to roam you could call my garden a public place meaning its illegal to mow my lawn.
Nope.

legal stuff said:
Land over which access rights not exercisable(1)The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is land—
(a)to the extent that there is on it—
(i)a building or other structure or works, plant or fixed machinery;
(ii)a caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter;
(b)which—
(i)forms the curtilage of a building which is not a house or of a group of buildings none of which is a house;
(ii)forms a compound or other enclosure containing any such structure, works, plant or fixed machinery as is referred to in paragraph (a)(i) above;
(iii)consists of land contiguous to and used for the purposes of a school; or
(iv)comprises, in relation to a house or any of the places mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii) above, sufficient adjacent land to enable persons living there to have reasonable measures of privacy in that house or place and to ensure that their enjoyment of that house or place is not unreasonably disturbed;
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/2/section/6

In short:

legal stuff said:
Houses & gardens: you cannot take access in private gardens, within the curtilage of buildings, or in places where an entrance charge is made.
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/scotland/ourwork_scotland/access/walking-in-scotland2

streaky

18,240 posts

118 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
tvrgit said:
The only precedent that I am aware of dates back over 100 years, and in that case, the judge said "everybody knows what a public right of passage is, and I don't need to rule on that in my decision". So not exactly helpful.
Perhaps we could settle it by "crowd-sourcing".

Streaky

Red Devil

4,249 posts

77 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
Snowboy said:
I'm pretty sure there's a clause in law about agricultural and industrial machines not needing tax and mot for short journeys on the road.
Not sure abut MOT, but there are a considerable number of vehicles which are exempt from VED. The category you mention is just one of several. See VERA 1994 Schedule 2



Edited by Red Devil on Tuesday 5th June 15:37

Cat

1,090 posts

138 months

[news] 
Tuesday 5th June 2012 quote quote all
There is a lot of rubbish posted on here about what constitutes a road/public place for the purposes of the RTA. The presence or otherwise of a gate/sign are unlikely to be the determining factor.

Have a look at this case law to see what the Scottish courts have taken to be the relevant factors.

Cat
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