P2P & Torrents - Legal question
Discussion
2 Scenarios i would like to put forward and have someone explain what law is being broken by me in each case.
1 - The damaged CD.
I buy an album from say tesco - i have paid for the rights to listen to each one of those tracks, forever. (as long as i don't play them to an audience)
This CD gets scratched from laying around on the floor of my car. It's the media thats damaged and i can no longer use it.
So, i find the same album on a torrent somewhere, download it, burn it and then i have all those tracks again.
Now having already paid for the right to listen to that album - what law have i broken ?
2 - Failed recording on Sky+
I set a series link on Homeland season 2 - if this had recorded ok, it would remain on my box indefinitely for watching when ever i choose. Now, an episode of Homeland fails due to a 'technical fault' so i go and find the same episode on a torrent, download, and watch.
I pay a subscription to sky to cover the rights on the material i view - so i have paid to watch homeland - what law have i broken by downloading it from a different source?
I understand that the people that are sharing them havent paid to distribute them, but if the people downloading them have paid that right already through other mediums, what is the issue?
1 - The damaged CD.
I buy an album from say tesco - i have paid for the rights to listen to each one of those tracks, forever. (as long as i don't play them to an audience)
This CD gets scratched from laying around on the floor of my car. It's the media thats damaged and i can no longer use it.
So, i find the same album on a torrent somewhere, download it, burn it and then i have all those tracks again.
Now having already paid for the right to listen to that album - what law have i broken ?
2 - Failed recording on Sky+
I set a series link on Homeland season 2 - if this had recorded ok, it would remain on my box indefinitely for watching when ever i choose. Now, an episode of Homeland fails due to a 'technical fault' so i go and find the same episode on a torrent, download, and watch.
I pay a subscription to sky to cover the rights on the material i view - so i have paid to watch homeland - what law have i broken by downloading it from a different source?
I understand that the people that are sharing them havent paid to distribute them, but if the people downloading them have paid that right already through other mediums, what is the issue?
mmm-five said:
You haven't broken a law, you've just infringed on copyright.
You wouldn't be arrested by the police for doing so (they concentrate mainly on the other end of the 'piracy' spectrum - i.e. distribution), but you may be sued and taken to court by the copyright holder.
how if i have already paid on both counts to listen / view the material ?You wouldn't be arrested by the police for doing so (they concentrate mainly on the other end of the 'piracy' spectrum - i.e. distribution), but you may be sued and taken to court by the copyright holder.
OK then - now what about this......hypothetically
I have recorded Homeland on my DVR and watched it. My brother, over in Spain had a problem with reception on his satellite and missed the episode I still have on my DVR, so he asks me to burn it to a DVD and post it to him so he can catch up.....
What if anything have I done wrong?
What if it wasn't Spain, but the USA and it has to go through their Customs system?
Not that I have, but I have known people that have, and would be curious what laws have been broken, and what the likely outcome, if any, would be?
And what of Slingbox? That can be used by someone else to remotely view material - I use mine when I'm away to watch UK TV, but what if I was to give access to someone else in another country to my Slingbox? Would I be liable for anything?
I have recorded Homeland on my DVR and watched it. My brother, over in Spain had a problem with reception on his satellite and missed the episode I still have on my DVR, so he asks me to burn it to a DVD and post it to him so he can catch up.....
What if anything have I done wrong?
What if it wasn't Spain, but the USA and it has to go through their Customs system?
Not that I have, but I have known people that have, and would be curious what laws have been broken, and what the likely outcome, if any, would be?
And what of Slingbox? That can be used by someone else to remotely view material - I use mine when I'm away to watch UK TV, but what if I was to give access to someone else in another country to my Slingbox? Would I be liable for anything?
Edited by triumphkryten on Thursday 11th October 11:46
Pixelpeep said:
how if i have already paid on both counts to listen / view the material ?
You've paid for the right to listen to the music ON THE CD, or to watch the programme ON SKY.You've not been granted rights to do these things any other way, so you are in effect infringing.
Ultimately, the result would be no different than you copying a song/video from a CD/DVD before it became damaged (as the UK doesn't have a fair use law). I'm happy to time & place shift my recordings
mmm-five said:
You've paid for the right to listen to the music ON THE CD, or to watch the programme ON SKY.
You've not been granted rights to do these things any other way, so you are in effect infringing.
When you insert a music CD itunes can automatically rip the cd and include it on your play list and then sync with your iphone/ipod - surely if this is infringing a copyright, apple of all people (given the fact that they also SELL music) wouldn't include this functionality or even have a warning informing the consumer that they may be infringing a copyright ?You've not been granted rights to do these things any other way, so you are in effect infringing.
Pixelpeep said:
When you insert a music CD itunes can automatically rip the cd and include it on your play list and then sync with your iphone/ipod - surely if this is infringing a copyright, apple of all people (given the fact that they also SELL music) wouldn't include this functionality or even have a warning informing the consumer that they may be infringing a copyright ?
Apple are in effect giving you a free copy of the song (if available in their store)Pixelpeep said:
When you insert a music CD itunes can automatically rip the cd and include it on your play list and then sync with your iphone/ipod - surely if this is infringing a copyright, apple of all people (given the fact that they also SELL music) wouldn't include this functionality or even have a warning informing the consumer that they may be infringing a copyright ?
Apple are not responsible for policing anything.Otherwise they'd be responsible for allowing someone to search for kiddy-porn using Safari.
The UK is one of the few countries where the 'fair use' doctrine has not been applied to media in the digital age. However, they're not actively prosecuting home users either.
This is my problem with digital media copyright law. They are being written and updated by Governments who do not really understand the issues and are being bombarded by big media lobbyists.
We can purchase media on physical format and resell or pass on items after our death but this is not possible with digital media. So all those films, iTunes, ebooks we are buying have no value beyond our own consumption. A company called "ReDigi" developed technology to comply with existing copyright laws, scan files and verify ownership before removing them from your computer and making them available via their market for sale. Enter EMI who argued that the legal principle which allows consumers to resell purchased material goods does not apply to digital media. Now it will take US court to decide who is right.
We can purchase media on physical format and resell or pass on items after our death but this is not possible with digital media. So all those films, iTunes, ebooks we are buying have no value beyond our own consumption. A company called "ReDigi" developed technology to comply with existing copyright laws, scan files and verify ownership before removing them from your computer and making them available via their market for sale. Enter EMI who argued that the legal principle which allows consumers to resell purchased material goods does not apply to digital media. Now it will take US court to decide who is right.
they are not coming after you for downloading. It's distribution/uploading that they have an issue with and that is what they will try to pin on you.
Flat denial is the best defence - you didn't do it and are not aware of any offence. Maybe your PC was hacked, or your wlan used without your knowledge? Make them prove beyond reasonable doubt/balance of probability the link between the meatware and IP address.
Flat denial is the best defence - you didn't do it and are not aware of any offence. Maybe your PC was hacked, or your wlan used without your knowledge? Make them prove beyond reasonable doubt/balance of probability the link between the meatware and IP address.
mmm-five said:
Apple are not responsible for policing anything.
Otherwise they'd be responsible for allowing someone to search for kiddy-porn using Safari.
The UK is one of the few countries where the 'fair use' doctrine has not been applied to media in the digital age. However, they're not actively prosecuting home users either.
to make that analogy correct you would need to include a button on safari that when clicked searches for the term 'kiddy porn' or automatically searches for it as soon as you load it up.Otherwise they'd be responsible for allowing someone to search for kiddy-porn using Safari.
The UK is one of the few countries where the 'fair use' doctrine has not been applied to media in the digital age. However, they're not actively prosecuting home users either.
we are talking about a specific function on itunes that serves no other purpose than to copy copyrighted material for use on another device - it even goes off and finds the artwork !
its not a side effect or a 'might be used for illegal stuff' its the ONLY thing it does.
redback911 said:
This is my problem with digital media copyright law. They are being written and updated by Governments who do not really understand the issues and are being bombarded by big media lobbyists.
Agreed, but conversely there are a lot of people who are 'lobbying' for free film downloads etc. who don't understand the knock on effects that this could have on the media industry and a variety of other industries. There is a general ignorance about how licensing works, and a reluctance to accept that being licensed to use something is different to actually owning it (as if it were a physical asset).redback911 said:
We can purchase media on physical format and resell or pass on items after our death but this is not possible with digital media. So all those films, iTunes, ebooks we are buying have no value beyond our own consumption. A company called "ReDigi" developed technology to comply with existing copyright laws, scan files and verify ownership before removing them from your computer and making them available via their market for sale. Enter EMI who argued that the legal principle which allows consumers to resell purchased material goods does not apply to digital media. Now it will take US court to decide who is right.
ReDigi doesn't comply with copyright laws though - that's EMI's point. They've made a pretty good effort to appear to do so, but they are still distributing copies of the original media rather than the original media itself. To many people that doesn't seem to be too bad, but the distinction is very important when applied to other digital products. Incidentally, I loved the ReDigi quote that they are 'creating billions of dollars' - careful now, you're beginning to sound like bankers!
I could bore you with the technicalities of this (and UsedSoft v Oracle) but I won't. Needless to say, I'm in one of the groups regularly portrayed as being the bad guys when it comes to digital media rights (and a few other things come to think of it).
Pixelpeep said:
to make that analogy correct you would need to include a button on safari that when clicked searches for the term 'kiddy porn' or automatically searches for it as soon as you load it up.
we are talking about a specific function on itunes that serves no other purpose than to copy copyrighted material for use on another device - it even goes off and finds the artwork !
its not a side effect or a 'might be used for illegal stuff' its the ONLY thing it does.
It can be used to copy material which you originated (i.e. to which you already own the copyright) or which is subject to one of the many licences which explicitly permit copying. It's no different to a photocopier - it can be used to copy things which you create or which other people create. One is perfectly lawful, the other is a technical breach which could be pursued if the rights holder could be bothered.we are talking about a specific function on itunes that serves no other purpose than to copy copyrighted material for use on another device - it even goes off and finds the artwork !
its not a side effect or a 'might be used for illegal stuff' its the ONLY thing it does.
In the case of iTunes some of its behaviour is perfectly permissible in its country of origin, but not (technically) allowed in others. Rights holders tend to turn a blind eye as long as the abuse is for personal use only. Hence the emphasis on pursuing distributors rather than consumers.
Pixelpeep said:
2 Scenarios i would like to put forward and have someone explain what law is being broken by me in each case.
1 - The damaged CD.
I buy an album from say tesco - i have paid for the rights to listen to each one of those tracks, forever.
No you haven't. You've paid for the right to reproduce (or play, in simpler English) the musical works and sound recordings that are on the CD you have purchased. 1 - The damaged CD.
I buy an album from say tesco - i have paid for the rights to listen to each one of those tracks, forever.
Pixelpeep said:
2 - Failed recording on Sky+
I set a series link on Homeland season 2 - if this had recorded ok, it would remain on my box indefinitely for watching when ever i choose. Now, an episode of Homeland fails due to a 'technical fault' so i go and find the same episode on a torrent, download, and watch.
I pay a subscription to sky to cover the rights on the material i view - so i have paid to watch homeland - what law have i broken by downloading it from a different source?
You've paid Sky for them to beam moving images into your home. If you haven't paid for a full VOD service, you've bought the right to watch them at a time Sky chooses to make them available. If you miss Sky's transmission of them, or if you fail to record Sky's transmission of them so that you can watch them later, that's your fault. If Sky screws up the transmission so that you can't watch/record, you have a contractual argument with Sky. I set a series link on Homeland season 2 - if this had recorded ok, it would remain on my box indefinitely for watching when ever i choose. Now, an episode of Homeland fails due to a 'technical fault' so i go and find the same episode on a torrent, download, and watch.
I pay a subscription to sky to cover the rights on the material i view - so i have paid to watch homeland - what law have i broken by downloading it from a different source?
mmm-five said:
You haven't broken a law, you've just infringed on copyright.
Congratulations, you have won the prize for "single stupidest sentence in the history of the English language".I stabbed a bloke and he died, where do I stand?
Not to worry, sir, you haven't broken a law, you've just murdered a bloke.
On the subject at hand, I think it's already been covered, but if my car breaks down and my neighbour has the same model, do I get to just take his motor because I've paid for the use of a car? No, certainly not. You have paid not for the right to enjoy those tracks for all time, but to enjoy use of that CD (the physical disk) for all time. The same thing happens everywhere, if I buy a T-shirt and it gets discoloured in the wash, I can't go and demand a replacement, because I purchased THAT T-shirt, not ALL T-shirts.
I do take your point though, and I note with happiness that Apple have taken a sensible view and will allow a user to download their purchases onto the same device as many times as is required (in the case of data loss for whatever reason).
Simon.
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