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folos

Original Poster:

813 posts

30 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Hi all,

After 2 months of timewasters and tyrekickers I sold my clio 197 to a trader back in July as I had the perfect new car lined up ready to buy. He came over to Cardiff from Essex and was a very nice chap, the transaction went smoothly and that was the end of it, so I thought.

I very stupidly let him take the whole logbook after signing all relevant parts of it - I know that I should have sent off the transfer to a motor trader myself but I didn't see any reason why he wouldn't send it off. The tax ran out the following day after the sale and last week I recieved a letter from the DVLA for a fixed penalty and the arrears of the tax.

I contacted him, he said that he had informed the DVLA but would notify them again that the car was transferred on the 30th July - I replied saying it had been transferred on the 30th. However I got another letter today acknowledging the transfer but stating that as I was the registered keeper at the time of the 'offence' I have to pay the fine and arrears.

I've contacted the dealer again to discuss this further but if he is unwilling to assist what can I do about this? Do I have to just chalk it down to experience and pay the fine?

Edited by folos on Thursday 11th October 16:15

JM

2,180 posts

94 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
When do say the transfer was?

The alleged offence was committed from 1st Aug, so if the trader says he took the car on the 30th or 31st, what is the 'offence'?


folos

Original Poster:

813 posts

30 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
JM said:
When do say the transfer was?

The alleged offence was committed from 1st Aug, so if the trader says he took the car on the 30th or 31st, what is the 'offence'?
Transfer was on the 29th July (just checked), tax ran out on the 31st.

I think he forgot to send off the transfer note and failed to tax or SORN the car. I sold the car while it was still in tax and the DVLA has acknowledged the date of transfer but still holds me liable for being the keeper of an untaxed/SORN'd car and the accompanying fixed penalty - and arrears of tax.

JM

2,180 posts

94 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
folos said:
JM said:
When do say the transfer was?

The alleged offence was committed from 1st Aug, so if the trader says he took the car on the 30th or 31st, what is the 'offence'?
I think he forgot to send off the transfer note and failed to tax or SORN the car. I sold the car while it was still in tax and the DVLA has acknowledged the date of transfer but still holds me liable for being the keeper of an untaxed/SORN'd car and the accompanying fixed penalty - and arrears of tax.
Doesn't make sense.

If they (DVLA) acknowledge you sold/transfered the car in July, how can they claim you were still the 'keeper' in August?

Deva Link

26,934 posts

133 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
JM said:
Doesn't make sense.

If they (DVLA) acknowledge you sold/transfered the car in July, how can they claim you were still the 'keeper' in August?
I suppose they're saying: we accept what you say, but as you didn't tell us like you're supposed to, then you have to pay the penalty.

I don't know if it's an offence not to tell the DVLA, but a lot of such things, such as not advising of a new address, carry a fine of up to £1000, so they could hit you with that instead.
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Breadvan72

20,190 posts

51 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
The V5 makes it clear that, if you sell the car, you give the little tear off slip to the buyer, and you (not the buyer) send the rest off to the DVLA. I am sorry, but you have only yourself to blame for this situation.

joewilliams

2,004 posts

89 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Have you written to them stating "The vehicle XXXXXX was sold to BumEm Traders Ltd on 30th July 2012."?

Pontoneer

3,464 posts

74 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Depending on what exactly you have already said to DVLA , you could write back to them asking if they received the letter you sent at the time of sale informing them of the change of keeper ( you can inform them by letter and don't have to do it by sending off the V5 ) . Just say that the dealer asked for the complete V5 and you didn't know any better , but regardless you still wrote to inform them of the change of keeper and posted by first class post . There is no obligation for you to show proof of posting , send it signed for or anything else .

Under the Interpretations Act , the onus is on them to PROVE that you NEVER posted such a letter - since that is impossible , you win by default .

Of course , if you have already admitted ' I forgot to inform you ' , then you don't have that option .

Edited by Pontoneer on Thursday 11th October 17:49

Breadvan72

20,190 posts

51 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
That is not what the Intepretation Act says at all.

It says this:-

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.


This provision deems delivery to have occurred, but the deeming provision is disapplied if evidence to the contrary is provided.

It is a bit iffy on principle to tell fibs in order to evade a legal sanction.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Thursday 11th October 17:50

aw51 121565

4,143 posts

121 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Deva Link said:
JM said:
Doesn't make sense.

If they (DVLA) acknowledge you sold/transfered the car in July, how can they claim you were still the 'keeper' in August?
I suppose they're saying: we accept what you say, but as you didn't tell us like you're supposed to, then you have to pay the penalty.

I don't know if it's an offence not to tell the DVLA, but a lot of such things, such as not advising of a new address, carry a fine of up to £1000, so they could hit you with that instead.
yes I suspect the phrase that pays is "failure to notify change of keeper upon selling the vehicle" - or something very similar... frown

Pontoneer

3,464 posts

74 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Not as such , but it does effectively amount to that , and is a good 'get out of jail card' for someone in the OP's position .

BV , my reply posted before your edit , and I do agree with your sentiment at the end !

Depending on the OP's scruples , and what he has already said , might be a way out for him though smile

Edited by Pontoneer on Thursday 11th October 18:03

Deva Link

26,934 posts

133 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
It is a bit iffy on principle to tell fibs in order to evade a legal sanction.
It's especially iffy to tell your fibs in writing. smile

The other part of notifying the DVLA is you're supposed to look out for their acknowledgement back to you within 4 weeks and contact them if you don't get it. It says that on the bit of the form that you should return.

Last couple of cars I've px'd, the salesman has looked offended that I wanted to return the form myself. They both filled it in and put it an envelope in front of me so I let them post it. I set a reminder to watch for the acknowledgements though - both came very quickly.

Pontoneer

3,464 posts

74 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Deva Link said:
It's especially iffy to tell your fibs in writing. smile

The other part of notifying the DVLA is you're supposed to look out for their acknowledgement back to you within 4 weeks and contact them if you don't get it. It says that on the bit of the form that you should return.

Last couple of cars I've px'd, the salesman has looked offended that I wanted to return the form myself. They both filled it in and put it an envelope in front of me so I let them post it. I set a reminder to watch for the acknowledgements though - both came very quickly.
That 4 week thing is only DVLA's little internal rule and not law - you cannot be penalised for not doing it .

It amounts to them trying to put the onus on you if they fail to do their job .

Deva Link

26,934 posts

133 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Pontoneer said:
That 4 week thing is only DVLA's little internal rule and not law - you cannot be penalised for not doing it .

It amounts to them trying to put the onus on you if they fail to do their job .
It's just a cross-check that the notification got there.

surveyor

7,882 posts

72 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
Having yet another discussion with the DVLA on this. I think I cocked up, and let the dealer post the V5. I can't be certain is it's nearly two years ago.

We moved shortly after and by the time the nasty letters arrived the redirection had stopped. I knew nothing until the nasty debt chasers got in touch.

The DVLA offered to reduce to £40, and while I'm tempted to argue - I'm also tempted to save my self the hassle.

ferrariF50lover

732 posts

114 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Regardless of the facts of who said what to whom and why, does it not strike anyone else as A. A vastly disproportionate sum to be demanding even the reduced fee of £40 for what is, in essence, a very minor and totally inconsequential paperwork cockup and B. Very, VERY rich of the DVLA of all organisations to be doling out fines for making elementary errors of administration?

Send them a letter telling them that you did all you could and that no one died and that they can whistle for their money*

Simon.

  • Don't actually do this, of course, just think it to yourself so that the world seems a little less unjust and a little more rational.

Deva Link

26,934 posts

133 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
ferrariF50lover said:
.... a very minor and totally inconsequential paperwork cockup
It might not be though - it's pretty important to know who the current RK is of every car on the road.

Say someone smashes into your car and drives off. A witness notes the reg number. Your insurance contacts the RK and he shrugs his shoulders and says "how the fk am I supposed to know who was driving, I sold the car 3 months ago?". You contact the Police. They don't give a toss as no one was injured.

You can create your own much worse scenarios.

spikeyhead

8,838 posts

85 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Deva Link said:
ferrariF50lover said:
.... a very minor and totally inconsequential paperwork cockup
It might not be though - it's pretty important to know who the current RK is of every car on the road.

Say someone smashes into your car and drives off. A witness notes the reg number. Your insurance contacts the RK and he shrugs his shoulders and says "how the fk am I supposed to know who was driving, I sold the car 3 months ago?". You contact the Police. They don't give a toss as no one was injured.

You can create your own much worse scenarios.
My mate was asleep in bed at 3am when armed police smashed their way through his front door to question him about the armed robbery in which "his" car, with an inconsequential paperwork cockup, had been used as the getaway vehicle.

Red Devil

6,358 posts

96 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan72 said:
The V5 makes it clear that, if you sell the car, you give the little tear off slip to the buyer, and you (not the buyer) send the rest off to the DVLA. I am sorry, but you have only yourself to blame for this situation.
Only when it's a private sale, not (as in this case) when scrapping a car or selling into the trade. Then it's the other way round. You retain the yellow V5C/3 slip and send it to DVLA. The V5C is given to the dismantler/motor trader.

I am constantly amazed by how many people manage to get things wrong. The correct process is explained in the notes. All that is needed is to be able to read and understand them. It's not that difficult.

Breadvan72

20,190 posts

51 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
My bad: I missed the trader bit in the opening post.
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