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highflyer

Original Poster:

1,658 posts

112 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
I folks
just wondering how far this is going to go ?
I sold a Bike two years ago both parties filled out and signed the log book and it was sent off to the DVLA,
September 2012 I get a letter asking me to tax or sorn the bike, so I called them to explain that I had sold the bike, couldn't remember the exact date or the guys name or address, so the man at the DVLA said just return the paperwork with the details, which I did.
Today I get a Failure to relicense vehicle ******* and on the back they are asking me for a statement
so I have left the statement blank but replied on a seperate piece of paper the following
Dear Sir
This is the 2nd time you have sent me paperwork regarding ******* the bike was sold around August 2010 to a man in Conwy North Wales, all the relevent paperwork ie logbook was signed and sent to you The DVLA at that time.
I called the DVLA at 12.53 on the 20/09/12 when I recieved the last paperwork explaining this and sent the paperwork back with the details I had, which is the same as above.
SOLD AROUND AUGUST 2010
MAN IN CONWY N WALES
I NO LONGER OWN OR HAVE THIS BIKE
MATTER CLOSED !!!

To be honest I wrote it in haste due to being pi55ed off at having to fill in a statement, bit late now as it was posted 10 mins ago so no going back.
I cant remember who bought it cos I didn't keep a record, the bikes gone, the only reason I know it was about August was because it was advertised on PH

bertieg

369 posts

27 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
did you ever receive a notification that the registered keeper had changed? if not, expect a fine turning up on your doorstep soon

speaking from experience, expect a long, tedious argument which will undoubtedly end up in their favour. if they offer a fine, begrudgingly pay it and move on, disputing it wont get you anywhere frown

highflyer

Original Poster:

1,658 posts

112 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
Bertieg thanks for the reply
no I don't remember recieving a change of keeper but there is no fking way I am paying a fine 2 years later for there incompetence, I will call them monday and explain that I sent the letter back today and thats as far as I am going, we have 4 vehicles all of which are fully road legal, I have 3 number plates on retention which costs £75 a year, so they can FCK off

Steffan

9,278 posts

114 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
Better men than I have looked at this in some detail and I quote the Interpretations Act below to clarify the point.

Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 (IA78) which reads as follows...

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved,


SR181836126 PRASHANT 1ST July 2011


The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 requires (in this instance under s.17) that "the registered keeper shall immediately notify the Secretary of State of the fact and, at the same time, surrender the registration document to him"; s.3 states: "(3) Any application, notification, notice, information, particulars, appeal, declaration or other document or thing given or made in pursuance of these Regulations shall, except where it is expressly provided otherwise, be in writing."


What this means is that your obligations to the DVLA are fulfilled by posting the log book. Nothing else is required.

Write to the DVLA BY RECORDED DELIVERY and keep your record. They may write again: if so refer to the recorded letter and the Act. Inform them you will be charging reasonable fees for harassment if they continue. You have discharged your duties in accordance with the law.

They will give up. I have suggested this to many friends and not one has been chased by the DVLA once the recorded letter has been sent. It works because of the Interpretations Act precedence. Good Luck.

BliarOut

59,721 posts

125 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
By sending them the paperwork you completed your duties as the documents are deemed served. Their request that you contact them if you don't receive a reply has no basis in law.

I'm sure someone will come along and word it much better in a min smile

I tend to keep records of the date and time I post stuff these days to avoid incompetent public bodies...
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Mr Sparkle

1,874 posts

56 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
I thought if you swear you sent the paperwork off correctly there was nothing the DVLA could do because they are deemed to have received it? (or something)

Someone will be along shortly co clarity. You might have luck with the search as this comes up all the time.

Edit: see above who posted while was typing.

highflyer

Original Poster:

1,658 posts

112 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
Excellent thankyou for the replys put my mind at rest, got to be honest I dont remember recieving a letter for the change of owner, just checked out the web site and you are supposed to recieve this within 4 weeks of sending off the log book, that I do remember sending, because after he put the bike in the van and drove off I went out and posted the log book on the way.
I will see what there response is monday, bloody typical you always recieve letters like this on a Friday when you get in from work and have to stew over the weekend because they are closed.
thanks again
ps thanks blairout yes from now I shall keep a copy of all paperwork and reciepts

Edited by highflyer on Friday 2nd November 20:28

bertieg

369 posts

27 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
unfortunately, the interpretations act does not apply. (i dont understand why, but i stood in a court room and tried and failed to use it as my defence, for a very similar issue)

the DVLA and the court basically said posting it wasnt enough, i had to ensure there is reasonable belief that it has been delivered. that means it needs to go recorded/ signed for. i cant understand where it says that in the interpretation act, but thats how it was explained in a magistrates court, which left me considerably out of pocket

if you havent any proof of change of ownership and the DVLA believe the vehicle is still in your name, do your best to sort it asap, for as little money as possible

zubair

781 posts

79 months

[news] 
Friday 2nd November 2012 quote quote all
i gave free of a charge a vehicle to my driver in 05 as he was taking the vehicle to poland for good i sent the relevent part of the log book to dvla.prior to export vehicle was sorn off road 7 years later i still get a reminder every year and have to declare the vehicle as sorn.

cotney

539 posts

57 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
zubair said:
i gave free of a charge a vehicle to my driver in 05 as he was taking the vehicle to poland for good i sent the relevent part of the log book to dvla.prior to export vehicle was sorn off road 7 years later i still get a reminder every year and have to declare the vehicle as sorn.
Shouldn't you tell them it is no longer in the country? Or would that just open up a can of worms?

What about if you move house/business premises? Will you have to apply to change the RK address on a car not even in the county haha?

highflyer

Original Poster:

1,658 posts

112 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
cant sleep now, note time of posting frown
Thought I would get a response before I send this letter recorded delivery
  • ***** was on sorn when I bought it, because it was a box of bits, I had it rebuilt and sold it while it was still on sorn,
the man I sold it to was from Conwy N Wales, I remember counting out the money filling in the log book giving him the green slip and loading the bike into a large van I remember posting the log book the same day on my way out so I know the logbook was posted to the DVLA this was over 18 months ago, I am NOT the registered keeper.

Section 7 interpretations act 1978 (IA78)

there is no reference to proof of posting required ie recorded delivery or seigned for anywhere on a V5C
Therefore my obligations to the DVLA are fulfilled by posting the logbook over 18 months ago
I now consider this matter closed.

streaky

19,311 posts

135 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
bertieg said:
unfortunately, the interpretations act does not apply. (i dont understand why, but i stood in a court room and tried and failed to use it as my defence, for a very similar issue)

the DVLA and the court basically said posting it wasnt enough, i had to ensure there is reasonable belief that it has been delivered. that means it needs to go recorded/ signed for. i cant understand where it says that in the interpretation act, but thats how it was explained in a magistrates court, which left me considerably out of pocket

if you havent any proof of change of ownership and the DVLA believe the vehicle is still in your name, do your best to sort it asap, for as little money as possible
The basic premise of the Interpretation Act is that service by post must be 'authorised or required' in an Act. We have debated here several times whether this is the situation WRT paperwork sent to DVLA on change of ownership, and the conclusion is that the IA applies.

It is possible that the Magistrates in your case were not correctly advised by the Clerk. It might be that they were correct ... but Magistrates' Courts do not make case law, so each new case is tried on merit.

There are more anecdotes of DVLA/CPS withdrawing up to the eleventh hour than there are of successful prosecutions.

In the absense of evidence of posting, if the sender is prepared to swear that the documents were sent, the burden of proof lies with the DVLA that they were not. The DVLA will likely try to argue that they can 'prove' they did not receive them, citing their procedures, but that should not be acceptable to the court. What DVLA (actually, the CPS) has to show - beyond a reasonable doubt - is that the defendant did not post the letter ... an impossibility.

I think you were hard done by and ill-served by your representative in court.

DVLA claim that, if you do not receive notification (of receipt) from them you must enquire of them whether it was received. There is nothing in law to back this up.

I would always send documents I needed returning by Special Delivery and keep photocopies/scans, but for the purposes of the Interpretation Act, a receipt showing DVLA's address should suffice.

Streaky

Edited by streaky on Saturday 3rd November 11:00

tbc

2,761 posts

61 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
bertieg said:
did you ever receive a notification that the registered keeper had changed? if not, expect a fine turning up on your doorstep soon

speaking from experience, expect a long, tedious argument which will undoubtedly end up in their favour. if they offer a fine, begrudgingly pay it and move on, disputing it wont get you anywhere frown
why don;t you just bend over and assume the position for the DVLA to shaft him again.

The guy has done nothing wrong and your telling him to pay a fine and move on

if you have done nothing wrong then don't roll over and take it

This is what is wrong with modern society

People would rather pay to avoid hassle than stand up and fight when they're in the right

My father sold a car 3 years ago and sent off all the paper work only a year later for them to send him a nice letter asking who was the registered keeper was because they didn't have an info on it . He kept the guys name and address and sent them it twice. The DVLA then ask my father to go to the guys house and ask him why he hadn't sent anything to the DVLA when it was sold. The guy had kept the car but had gone to NZ. The DVA then ask my Dad to get in contact with the guy in NZ at his own expense.

My father gladly told them where to go

Breadvan72

19,723 posts

49 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
Why do people here always give the poor old Interpretation Act 1978 a gratuitous "S"?

The text of section 7 is a bit chopped about above, so here it is in full:-

"Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."


This raises what lawyers sometimes call a rebuttable resumption that a document has been delivered. It is for the party who says otherwise to prove that the document was not delivered.

Futuramic

1,664 posts

91 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
It's all too common. I scrapped a car and sent off the stuff. The DVlA claimed they'd never received it some months down the line. I telephoned the scrapyard; who remembered me (thankfully) and passed their details to the DVLA. They promptly backed down after I sent a letter providing everything available.

Since then I have kept colour photocopies of eveything and pay for stuff to be sent by recorded delivery. It's not worth the risk otherwise.

KevinA4quattro

6,084 posts

166 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
bertieg said:
unfortunately, the interpretations act does not apply. (i dont understand why, but i stood in a court room and tried and failed to use it as my defence, for a very similar issue)

the DVLA and the court basically said posting it wasnt enough, i had to ensure there is reasonable belief that it has been delivered. that means it needs to go recorded/ signed for. i cant understand where it says that in the interpretation act, but thats how it was explained in a magistrates court, which left me considerably out of pocket

if you havent any proof of change of ownership and the DVLA believe the vehicle is still in your name, do your best to sort it asap, for as little money as possible
You may have lost your case but it was incorrect to do so. See Breadvan72's post. There is also plenty of documented cases of winning here on Pistonheads

T0nup

629 posts

86 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
OP sold the bike 2 years ago... So what happened to the reminder last year?
Or are they chasing 2 years worth of tax?

highflyer

Original Poster:

1,658 posts

112 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
Thanks streaky for the reply but it is only at the letter stage, I will go to court if I have to, because I am NOT paying for somebody else's mistakes and I am not going to roll the fck over, I wont be paying for a solicitor or be out of pocket either, I remember sending the paperwork off the same day because I dropped it in the letterbox on my way out, BUT if I sell another vehicle in the future I WILL be keeping a record.
What annoys me we have 4 vehicles, always totally legal, 3 numberplates on retention, so they are getting there money's worth out of me without trying to stitch me up for more, so basically they can get fcked, called DVLA this am, no help whatsoever from an arrogant btch who said I will have to speak to the area enforcement office on monday so still got to stew over the weekend, getting more annoyed as they probably have me by the ba11's but the above still applies smile

TOnup NO thats what I don't understand haven't recieved a reminder before bikes been gone over 18 months

Dear sir/madam
our records show you are the registered keeper of the above vehicle. This vehicle did not have a valid tax disc or Statutory Off Road Notice (SORN) in force from 01/09/2012 this is an offence.





Edited by highflyer on Saturday 3rd November 14:31

bertieg

369 posts

27 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
tbc said:
why don;t you just bend over and assume the position for the DVLA to shaft him again.

The guy has done nothing wrong and your telling him to pay a fine and move on

if you have done nothing wrong then don't roll over and take it

This is what is wrong with modern society

People would rather pay to avoid hassle than stand up and fight when they're in the right

My father sold a car 3 years ago and sent off all the paper work only a year later for them to send him a nice letter asking who was the registered keeper was because they didn't have an info on it . He kept the guys name and address and sent them it twice. The DVLA then ask my father to go to the guys house and ask him why he hadn't sent anything to the DVLA when it was sold. The guy had kept the car but had gone to NZ. The DVA then ask my Dad to get in contact with the guy in NZ at his own expense.

My father gladly told them where to go
if you read all my posts, you would see that is not what i did. i had my day in court to fight it, because i knew i was right. unfortunately, they clearly saw a young, inexperienced person and thought they'd punish me, regardless of what i and anyone else may believe right

PDenyer

269 posts

94 months

[news] 
Saturday 3rd November 2012 quote quote all
I got a fine letter from dvla sidcup , phoned up and spoke to a nice lady who said hold fire whilst she looks into previous correspondence re sorn letters and my reply letter with new buyers details on , received another letter 2 weeks later saying no further action being taken ..
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