Courtesy car puncture

[supermono]

So I've picked up a shard of metal in a tyre of a courtesy car. Fair enough I thought my bad luck I'll pay the bill.

But I've spoken to several people today mentioning it in passing and everyone to a man indignantly suggests it's not my problem and the dealer will/should pay.

Now am I being overly generous by expecting to pay for the damage that happened during my care or not?

SM

[esselte]

Did you sign a disclaimer about the car?If so what did it say? Some garages I've had courtesy cars from say it's the driver's responsibility....some don't mention it at all.....

[JustinP1]

If it were a hire car then I would say it is probably in the T&Cs that you need to pay.

However, I don't think the same implicit understanding is there for fair wear and tear on a courtesy car - the running cost of this is absorbed in the cost of their service.

I would hand it back and apologise, it is not as if you have been negligent in any way, and am pretty sure the profit element of their work will cover the cost of a replacement tyre in the same condition.

[supermono]

JustinP1 said:

I would hand it back and apologise, it is not as if you have been negligent in any way, and am pretty sure the profit element of their work will cover the cost of a replacement tyre in the same condition.

Interesting. When I warned them on the phone this morning to expect their car on a low-loader, she said immediately I'll have to pay for the tyre, but now I'm thinking again. There's a hell of a lot of work taking place labour wise, most of which paid for under warranty plus I'm getting about 1k of parts replaced at the same time (clutch, etc)

I wonder if it'll be worth kicking up a fuss?

SM

[JustinP1]

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

I would hand it back and apologise, it is not as if you have been negligent in any way, and am pretty sure the profit element of their work will cover the cost of a replacement tyre in the same condition.

Interesting. When I warned them on the phone this morning to expect their car on a low-loader, she said immediately I'll have to pay for the tyre, but now I'm thinking again. There's a hell of a lot of work taking place labour wise, most of which paid for under warranty plus I'm getting about 1k of parts replaced at the same time (clutch, etc)

I wonder if it'll be worth kicking up a fuss?

SM

Hmm, interesting tact on their part.

Look at it from your point of view. You bought a car from say BMW. BMW have a dealer network they authorise for warranty claims. Unfortunately your BMW didnt last the 3 years or whatever claimed and you returned it for the warranty work, and they supplied you with a car whilst they performed their contractual duty - which of course you didn't ask for but was necessary to use their product you paid good money for.

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

I would tell them to get stuffed. Hell, if it ticks over the 10,000 mile mark do they want you to pay for the service and oil change too!?

[supermono]

JustinP1 said:

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

It's not quite like that but similar... It's a Porsche and Porsche assist came and took the car away and provided me with another car (!) All excellent service.

Just spoke to the service girl and she's adamant that I have to pay their trade price + VAT for the tyre. Because I'm liable for "Speeding and parking fines and any vehicle damage".

I must admit it seems to me that the onus is on me, but your warranty point is very compelling! After all I didn't actually want to be driving their cayman. I think I'll pay up today and take it up with Porsche UK.

It's going to be hard to not pay there and then because I need my own car back and I've got this extra work to pay for too.

SM

[JulianHJ]

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

It's not quite like that but similar... It's a Porsche and Porsche assist came and took the car away and provided me with another car (!) All excellent service.

Just spoke to the service girl and she's adamant that I have to pay their trade price + VAT for the tyre. Because I'm liable for "Speeding and parking fines and any vehicle damage".

I must admit it seems to me that the onus is on me, but your warranty point is very compelling! After all I didn't actually want to be driving their cayman. I think I'll pay up today and take it up with Porsche UK.

It's going to be hard to not pay there and then because I need my own car back and I've got this extra work to pay for too.

SM

Is the car one of the dealer's fleet or a hire car from a separate firm? A few years back when I worked for a large car hire firm that had the contract for Porsche Assistance (which was run by Mondial) we'd never have dreamed of charging a customer for a new tyre unless it was obvious neglect.

[esselte]

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

It's not quite like that but similar... It's a Porsche and Porsche assist came and took the car away and provided me with another car (!) All excellent service.

Just spoke to the service girl and she's adamant that I have to pay their trade price + VAT for the tyre. Because I'm liable for "Speeding and parking fines and any vehicle damage".

I must admit it seems to me that the onus is on me, but your warranty point is very compelling! After all I didn't actually want to be driving their cayman. I think I'll pay up today and take it up with Porsche UK.

It's going to be hard to not pay there and then because I need my own car back and I've got this extra work to pay for too.

SM

If your car wasn't in dock and you were driving it along you'd probably have driven over the same nail or whatever and had the same puncture.....just a thought....

[JustinP1]

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

It's not quite like that but similar... It's a Porsche and Porsche assist came and took the car away and provided me with another car (!) All excellent service.

Just spoke to the service girl and she's adamant that I have to pay their trade price + VAT for the tyre. Because I'm liable for "Speeding and parking fines and any vehicle damage".

I must admit it seems to me that the onus is on me, but your warranty point is very compelling! After all I didn't actually want to be driving their cayman. I think I'll pay up today and take it up with Porsche UK.

It's going to be hard to not pay there and then because I need my own car back and I've got this extra work to pay for too.

SM

Do we know the tyre was damaged before or after you had it?

That said, the tyres are in contact with the road 24/7, part of their construction is that on occasion without neglect they will be worn or damaged.

I would tell them I was not paying for it and you would be writing to Porsche UK for advice. Once you have paid for it chances of getting your money back are next to nothing. If they want to kick up a stink there and then, then so be it, it will only be them who loses out on firstly the hassle and secondly your custom.

[supermono]

JustinP1 said:

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

It's not quite like that but similar... It's a Porsche and Porsche assist came and took the car away and provided me with another car (!) All excellent service.

Just spoke to the service girl and she's adamant that I have to pay their trade price + VAT for the tyre. Because I'm liable for "Speeding and parking fines and any vehicle damage".

I must admit it seems to me that the onus is on me, but your warranty point is very compelling! After all I didn't actually want to be driving their cayman. I think I'll pay up today and take it up with Porsche UK.

It's going to be hard to not pay there and then because I need my own car back and I've got this extra work to pay for too.

SM

Do we know the tyre was damaged before or after you had it?

That said, the tyres are in contact with the road 24/7, part of their construction is that on occasion without neglect they will be worn or damaged.

I would tell them I was not paying for it and you would be writing to Porsche UK for advice. Once you have paid for it chances of getting your money back are next to nothing. If they want to kick up a stink there and then, then so be it, it will only be them who loses out on firstly the hassle and secondly your custom.

I'll take that advice and say I'm not paying I'll see how far I get. I see from the web I can buy a tyre for £x so I know my maximum liability.

Definitely think it's right that I might well have driven over the same shard in my car so it's really hard for me to shirk the responsibility with a clear conscience.

SM

[JustinP1]

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

Now, the dealership is going to be charging BMW for the cost of using the courtesy car, so this should be covered. Whilst this has happened through no fault of your own the tyre needs replacing on the car. It sounds like you are also having the decency to pay for the low loader too?

It's not quite like that but similar... It's a Porsche and Porsche assist came and took the car away and provided me with another car (!) All excellent service.

Just spoke to the service girl and she's adamant that I have to pay their trade price + VAT for the tyre. Because I'm liable for "Speeding and parking fines and any vehicle damage".

I must admit it seems to me that the onus is on me, but your warranty point is very compelling! After all I didn't actually want to be driving their cayman. I think I'll pay up today and take it up with Porsche UK.

It's going to be hard to not pay there and then because I need my own car back and I've got this extra work to pay for too.

SM

Do we know the tyre was damaged before or after you had it?

That said, the tyres are in contact with the road 24/7, part of their construction is that on occasion without neglect they will be worn or damaged.

I would tell them I was not paying for it and you would be writing to Porsche UK for advice. Once you have paid for it chances of getting your money back are next to nothing. If they want to kick up a stink there and then, then so be it, it will only be them who loses out on firstly the hassle and secondly your custom.

I'll take that advice and say I'm not paying I'll see how far I get. I see from the web I can buy a tyre for £x so I know my maximum liability.

Definitely think it's right that I might well have driven over the same shard in my car so it's really hard for me to shirk the responsibility with a clear conscience.

SM

Well from a moral sense, thats not how chaos theory works. That would have opened up a whole new continuum!

That said, even if you are lawfully found in the wrong your responsibility is not to put a new tyre on the car it is to repair it, or replace it like for like.

It depends. If it were a hire car, I would see the issue. Morally however the only reason you have the car is firstly, you are getting your car repaired under warranty, and secondly you have chosen to give your hard earned money to them. They expected you to take good care of the car whilst you *use* it. They didnt expect it back without wear and tear. I would suggest that what has happened is fair wear and tear in the running of a car - not an accident or negligence, and their responsibility to cover the cost not yours.

[supermono]

Well this has opened a can of worms. Just spoke to their person who's adamant, they've quoted me ~15% more than retail price on the web for the same tyre and they want VAT too. I don't need to pay VAT do I? They're not...

SM

[JustinP1]

supermono said:

Well this has opened a can of worms. Just spoke to their person who's adamant, they've quoted me ~15% more than retail price on the web for the same tyre and they want VAT too. I don't need to pay VAT do I? They're not...

SM

Quite.

They are taking the mickey. Tell them you have taken legal advice about the tyre and ask them to put any issues with regard to the tyre in writing to that you can take further advice and also take the issue up with Porsche UK.

Two things here, they probably wont be bothered. Secondly, by doing things like asking for VAT they would not doubt later reclaim they are letting themselves into putting things in writing that in hindsight which would sound silly or unlawful. However 'on the phone' they can deny what was said until the cows come home.

You have every right to be able to expect that with a contractual issue over a three figure sum that you should see a response or demand in writing and secondly that you should be allowed to take this response away for legal advice. As such, they would be on very, very, shaky ground if they didn't release your car after asking this.

[spikeyhead]

supermono said:

Well this has opened a can of worms. Just spoke to their person who's adamant, they've quoted me ~15% more than retail price on the web for the same tyre and they want VAT too. I don't need to pay VAT do I? They're not...

SM

They'll pay the VAT but claim it back if they end up paying. If they "sell" you the new tyre then they have to charge VAT on it.

[ineedagallardo]

Vat will have to be paid.

They will be charged vat for the tyre - which they can reclaim from HMRC, but they'l also have to pay HMRC the vat they charge you.

Unfortunately if you look at the small print of the majority of car hire firms, most will state that punctures are the responsibility of the person hireing the veichle.


HTH

Edited by ineedagallardo on Monday 12th May 16:28

[TallPaul]

It's a bit late now, but I'd have taken the tyre to a fast-fit place & got them to plug it. Nobody need know a thing then!

[supermono]

TallPaul said:

It's a bit late now, but I'd have taken the tyre to a fast-fit place & got them to plug it. Nobody need know a thing then!

I would have done that but it was quite badly damaged, and no spare just that fix-a-flat stuff which wouldn't have been up to the job. By the time I had the car recovered to somewhere (which might not have been able to repair the tyre anyhow, and might not have a replacement in stock) I'd already be out of pocket more than the tyre and wasted a beautiful Sunday afternoon I'd planned floating around the pool with a glass of wine

• Update*

I've collected my car and not yet paid for the tyre. They'll call me today about it.

As far as the VAT goes, my understanding is that it's added to sales. I'm not buying a tyre I'm paying Porsche the money for a tyre that they're fitting to their own trade car. So, for example, if Porsche UK pay 100 quid for a tyre, they pay 117.50 to their supplier, HMRC repay PUK 17.50, I pay PUK 100 quid. It's not a retail sale, I'm simply recompensing Porsche.

When they telephone me I'll just have them write me a letter with the demand explained in terms of my contract...

Cheers all
SM

[JustinP1]

supermono said:

TallPaul said:

It's a bit late now, but I'd have taken the tyre to a fast-fit place & got them to plug it. Nobody need know a thing then!

I would have done that but it was quite badly damaged, and no spare just that fix-a-flat stuff which wouldn't have been up to the job. By the time I had the car recovered to somewhere (which might not have been able to repair the tyre anyhow, and might not have a replacement in stock) I'd already be out of pocket more than the tyre and wasted a beautiful Sunday afternoon I'd planned floating around the pool with a glass of wine

• Update*

I've collected my car and not yet paid for the tyre. They'll call me today about it.

As far as the VAT goes, my understanding is that it's added to sales. I'm not buying a tyre I'm paying Porsche the money for a tyre that they're fitting to their own trade car. So, for example, if Porsche UK pay 100 quid for a tyre, they pay 117.50 to their supplier, HMRC repay PUK 17.50, I pay PUK 100 quid. It's not a retail sale, I'm simply recompensing Porsche.

When they telephone me I'll just have them write me a letter with the demand explained in terms of my contract...

Cheers all
SM

The VAT situation is now correct - before they did not have it right.

I think if you dig your heels in now, wait for written confirmation, they may decide to let 'goodwill' overcome. After all, I am guessing the trade cost of the tyre is probably about 10% of the labour charge and profit they would have made from you using them. To arse around when you clearly think it's unfair would be a bit shortsighted for their own business future...

[supermono]

JustinP1 said:

The VAT situation is now correct - before they did not have it right.

Those are my words, their service bod is checking that with the boss then calling me.

Although most of the work was covered under warranty, they've billed about 35 hours and over 1000 in parts. Certainly seems a little bit mean to force the point over a tyre. But then they're succeeding in making me feel mean for quibbling over it.

SM

[JustinP1]

supermono said:

JustinP1 said:

The VAT situation is now correct - before they did not have it right.

Those are my words, their service bod is checking that with the boss then calling me.

Although most of the work was covered under warranty, they've billed about 35 hours and over 1000 in parts. Certainly seems a little bit mean to force the point over a tyre. But then they're succeeding in making me feel mean for quibbling over it.

SM

Christ!

35 hours billed to you? At my local Merc garage thats about £4500!

Bloody hell, for a bill like that I would throw in the tyre, never mention it and come and shake you hand with the quiet knowledge that your bills are putting my kids through private school singlehandedly.