Unsigned NIP, summons, received still, now what?

[wimdows]

Hi folks,

I have just received a crappy still as photo evidence which they will be using against me, after an unsigned NIP, court summons, me pleading not guilty and asking for evidence to be disclosed.

I have pleaded not guilty to both alleged offences of failure to provide and speeding. At the moment I'm just not sure what to do next.

Is the photographic evidence alone enough? Or is the signed NIP required?

Do I ask for the cases to be split?

Thanks,
Wim

[onedsla]

My understanding is that a photo has not been used to identify a driver in court to date.

[volvod5_dude]

Surely they cannot prosecute you for both speeding and non-disclosure. Get a good solicitor on the case.

[wimdows]

volvod5_dude said:

Surely they cannot prosecute you for both speeding and non-disclosure. Get a good solicitor on the case.

That's why I think I need to have the cases split first - as it stands now, both cases will be heard at the same time. Is the request to keep them separate something that the Court will honour? Do they have to?

Any comments and advice appreciated.

Thanks,
Wim

[rs1952]

If my experience is anything to go by (last Friday, by the way), the prosecution will advise the magistrates at the hearing that they are actually seeking a conviction on one charge or the other - not both.

Presumably, their reasoning is that, without a signed confession, they have no evidence to support the speeding charge (unless the Yorke judgement applies, which is that if it can reasonably be inferred that you filled the thing in, but didn't sign it, it can be used as evidence). If that fails, they'll have a go at failing to disclose.

I know of no cases yet where an unsigned form has resulted in a conviction for failing to disclose, but there's always a first time (especially if the defence doesn't blow a hole in the case law of DPP v Broomfield).

In case anyone is interested, my case was adjourned until February !!

[wimdows]

Thanks,

Something else - what happens if you simply plead not guilty to both alleged offences (failing to provide and speeding) by post and don't turn up in court?

Just curious.

Wim

[rs1952]

If the summons says - and it will - that you "must" attend then, as I understand the situation, if you don't turn up you will be held to be in Contempt of Court and an arrest warrant will be issued.

If I am right in this asumption, I would suggest that you'd be better off putting your hands up to the speeding charge !!!!!

Any more posts from more knowledgeable individuals would, of course, possibly be more helpful !!!

[bobthebench]

wimdows said:

Thanks, Something else - what happens if you simply plead not guilty to both alleged offences (failing to provide and speeding) by post and don't turn up in court? Just curious. Wim

Seek local advice. In theory a warrant might be issued for your arrest, though in practice you aren't in contempt if you have responded to the citation, by letter, dates will be fixed for trial and you will be advised to seek legal advice. If you need to rely on some sympathy and understanding later on though, don't expect CPS to play ball. Either appear of get a solicitor involved.

[bobthebench]

volvod5_dude said:

Surely they cannot prosecute you for both speeding and non-disclosure. Get a good solicitor on the case.

Might just be to call your bluff. They start off with failing to provide. If NIP is lodged in court, it can only be proven in evidence by a witness speaking to (legal term, not actually trying to hold a conversation with a piece of paper). That witness would probably need to be the person who completed and posted it, otherwise who else knows what is in it. Once you take the stand to say "Yes i filled it in and DID provide the required info", CPS drop that charge and move on to charge 2, asking "Were you driving ..." As a witness, you cannot refuse to answer a question. Either you exercise your right to silence and stay out the box, so unable to prove you sent NIP, or you take the stand and answer everything they put to you.

The essence being they're out to get you, and get you they will. Speak to a lawyer.

[wimdows]

bobthebench said:

volvod5_dude said: Surely they cannot prosecute you for both speeding and non-disclosure. Get a good solicitor on the case. Might just be to call your bluff. They start off with failing to provide. If NIP is lodged in court, it can only be proven in evidence by a witness speaking to (legal term, not actually trying to hold a conversation with a piece of paper). That witness would probably need to be the person who completed and posted it, otherwise who else knows what is in it. Once you take the stand to say "Yes i filled it in and DID provide the required info", CPS drop that charge and move on to charge 2, asking "Were you driving ..." As a witness, you cannot refuse to answer a question. Either you exercise your right to silence and stay out the box, so unable to prove you sent NIP, or you take the stand and answer everything they put to you. The essence being they're out to get you, and get you they will. Speak to a lawyer.

Thanks for the reply.

As far as I understood it, you don't need to take the witness stand at all. I can still argue and say that I did provide all the required information, and if they then move on to the speeding charge it's up to them to decide whether I was driving based on a crappy snap. I can still excercise my right not to answer the question "Was it you who was driving?", by saying that I don't want to incriminate myself by answering it.

Cheers,
Wim

[Boosted LS1]

I believe you may be able to provide the court with a statement and thus avoid giving evidence. Whatever your statement says will be taken onboard by the magistrates.

I could have gone to a pre trial review on the 2nd but didn't bother. This was for failing to provide driver details. Maybe they will organise a new trial date. I'm waiting to hear from them.

[bobthebench]

Couple of quick points to clear up

Law usually requires best evidence. i.e. if you seen something, you take the stand and tell the court. Few exceptions where statements etc permitted instead, usually by the recently deceased, or a joint minute where both parties agree this is waht happened ..... Case is decided on evidence submitted, not necessarily all the facts. So if you don't take the stand, who will prove to the court that you did all that was required. If you ain't a witness, you can't.

Your right to silence and not to incriminate yourself is your right not to give evidence. Once you waive that right and volunteer to take the stand, all questions are fair game. You can't pick and choose the ones you answer.

[outlaw]

dont take the stand all way send em back specil deliver.

just bring a relation/freind along and get them to give evidence that they watched you fill it in and post it post the nip back.



after you sent the nip back did the morons send you and corosponndence back asking you too sign it.

or a bluff and bluster letter?


If they did this is all you need as evidence that you did send a nip to them.

but do make em split the cases.





>> Edited by outlaw on Friday 12th December 06:56

[gemini]

Just got back from your night shift Outlaw?

As for the friend - perjury is a serious "picking up the soap" offence

[wimdows]

Thanks guys,

Basically, I have correspondence saying they received the NIP but I allegedly only partially provided information. They also stress the fact that the NIP MUST be signed.

So that seems to me I have enough evidence to show them that I did return the NIP - all they have to do is tell me exactly where I have failed to comply with S172 RTA'88.

Cheers - I'll keep you guys updated.

Wim

[wimdows]

bobthebench said:

Couple of quick points to clear up Law usually requires best evidence. i.e. if you seen something, you take the stand and tell the court. Few exceptions where statements etc permitted instead, usually by the recently deceased, or a joint minute where both parties agree this is waht happened ..... Case is decided on evidence submitted, not necessarily all the facts. So if you don't take the stand, who will prove to the court that you did all that was required. If you ain't a witness, you can't. Your right to silence and not to incriminate yourself is your right not to give evidence. Once you waive that right and volunteer to take the stand, all questions are fair game. You can't pick and choose the ones you answer.

Thanks Bob,

So, would you suggest having the cases split as well? I know I can only be done for one anyway...

Cheers,
Wim

[Cooperman]

As I understand it, if you are to be prosecuted for both offences, they cannot ask you a question in one case which might lead to you incriminating yourself in another separate or different case.
Also, there is no legal requirement to sign the NIP and thus make it a voluntary confession - that's what all this is about. They may still be able to use the unsigned NIP under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, but in order to do this, AFAIK, they must have first informed you of your rights, and they have not done so in the proper manner. 'Safespeed' cover this in a skeleton argument on their web site and I think Paul Smith could also recommend a good lawyer.
Or go to one of the recommended solicitors listed on Pepipoo. It may cost you a few bob, but it will be worth it in the long run

[outlaw]

gemini said:

Just got back from your night shift Outlaw? As for the friend - perjury is a serious "picking up the soap" offence

not if they can prove it and thats a case where theres no way they anyway whos to say there want a freind there when he filled it in and posted it.

[outlaw]

wimdows said:

Thanks guys, Basically, I have correspondence saying they received the NIP but I allegedly only partially provided information. They also stress the fact that the NIP MUST be signed. So that seems to me I have enough evidence to show them that I did return the NIP - all they have to do is tell me exactly where I have failed to comply with S172 RTA'88. Cheers - I'll keep you guys updated. Wim

then you got em get the case split

preferably with the speeding heard first.

there drop that. trust me as they jhave no evidence.

then when it comes to the fail to provide just produce the letter they sent as prof they recived it.

[andygo]

Nice to see you back Bob!

You've been 'away' for a bit maybe??? LOL