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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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Ok- Where to begin- im naming no names in this thread in terms of garages etc as quality of workmanship V manufacturing issue could either be at fault here- I would like a couple answers,.... So, to set the scene- I am an honest person with cars,when I have sold any car ive had I would never try to deceive anyone with a hidden fault or accident or even hide any pending work that may be up for renewal- I suppose I would class myself as a 'trader'However I dont offer offer a warrenty- Cars are sold as seen - no warently implied- I would rather pay for the 'preventative servicing & work prior to sale to avoid being in a warrenty claim situation) To that ends I recently sold a car, It was exactly ONE month ago today that was the car was sold ( 29/09/10)- Like I said I am very fussy about what I sell & wanted to ensure that the any neccasary servicing & checks were completed prior to sale- So I had the car checked over & found it needed new Front disks - very costly items- but I paid for them to be replaced- I also paid MAIN DEALER 1X service prior to sale- Also because the car was on an 05 plate & approaching the 5 year service interval I decided for MY peice of mind as a seller with integrity to have the belt changed- of course it was also a selling point on the car) So,thats the cambelt change + water pump at again a cost exceeding £750- this work was completed by a REPUTABLE sepcialist ( recommended on a lot of forums) The work was completed 2 days before sale- So- in Summary Sold 1 month ago -- no warrenty, full dealer service day before sale, Belt change X2 days before sale- The car also had full main dealer service prior to that- Roll on 4 weeks........ Get a call from owner---- Car stopped worked- cut out & its not working- has it towed- Takes it to Main dealer that serviced it- Cambelt has Snapped- So obviously The new owner is not happy & as a person with a concience I fell really bad as well as I never wanted to be in this position with a sale & thats why the work + belt was completed prior to sale- When we BOTH spoke to the the 'specialist' garage they are trying to shirk the responsibility of the belt snapping by saying any warrenty on the work is now invalid because the car was sold to a new owner ( even though the work is less than 3 weeks old & the car was sold just 2 days later)- there was no mention of this prior to completing the work in terms of warrenty- So may I ask a couple of questions they are as follows: - ) After an exchange with the new owner today & giving the best advise I can- which is of course get an independent check in writing ( Main dealer) & take back to the specialist to repair the new owner is now saying he wants me to get the car repaired & deal with the specialist myself OR take the car back in its current state & give him a full refund?? ( Circa 15k)
What would the law state? - ) Has the specialist the right to turn round & refuse repair-
Just as an appendum- Im aware there are no Winners from this situation, but AFAIK the ownus does sit with the specialist to repair & foot the bill with the parts manufacturer Comments please & legal ones if possible.... Thanks
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mmm-five
3,865 posts
111 months
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The buyer's contract is with YOU (the trader), not the specialist.
Therefore the buyer is well within their rights to expect YOU (the trader) to sort it out.
As a trader, you cannot sell a car without the buyer having their standard consumer rights - i.e. if the car breaks shortly after sale then it's probably down to an existing problem.
The trader then has to seek compensation from the specialist in whatever manner they see fit - however if the specialist are saying there's no warranty as the car's been sold on, then all I can suggest is to carefully read the warranty that they supplied, if they didn't supply you with the T&Cs then point that out to them as well.
It could be that there was something wrong before the cambelt was changed, or that something has been fitted/refitted incorrectly and the cambelt is just a symptom of the main problem.
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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mmm-five said: The buyer's contract is with YOU (the trader), not the specialist.
Therefore the buyer is well within their rights to expect YOU (the trader) to sort it out.
As a trader, you cannot sell a car without the buyer having their standard consumer rights - i.e. if the car breaks shortly after sale then it's probably down to an existing problem.
The trader then has to seek compensation from the specialist in whatever manner they see fit - however if the specialist are saying there's no warranty as the car's been sold on, then all I can suggest is to carefully read the warranty that they supplied, if they didn't supply you with the T&Cs then point that out to them as well.
It could be that there was something wrong before the cambelt was changed, or that something has been fitted/refitted incorrectly and the cambelt is just a symptom of the main problem. & when does the seller V buyers contract finish- Whats the legal definition of 'SHORTLY AFTER'- Also define 'existing problem' when the work was new & was fine for sale & some 1 month after? Thanks
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Jasandjules
21,345 posts
56 months
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mmm-five said: The buyer's contract is with YOU (the trader), not the specialist.
Therefore the buyer is well within their rights to expect YOU (the trader) to sort it out.
As a trader, you cannot sell a car without the buyer having their standard consumer rights - i.e. if the car breaks shortly after sale then it's probably down to an existing problem.
The trader then has to seek compensation from the specialist in whatever manner they see fit - however if the specialist are saying there's no warranty as the car's been sold on, then all I can suggest is to carefully read the warranty that they supplied, if they didn't supply you with the T&Cs then point that out to them as well.
It could be that there was something wrong before the cambelt was changed, or that something has been fitted/refitted incorrectly and the cambelt is just a symptom of the main problem. I would agree with this in the main. You are the dealer, the person who bought the car has a contract with you (oh, and for the avoidance of doubt, IF you are a trader then ALL your vehicles sold in the course of business are sold with an implied warrant). I would dispute the idea that any term which states there is no warranty in the event the vehicle is sold would be valid, regardless of it's existence. There are a number of other factors in that as well, did you know there were T&Cs, was this clause expressly pointed out to you? (I doubt it from what you are saying) Did you get a receipt with T&Cs on it etc. etc.
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jas xjr
2,215 posts
66 months
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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Jasandjules said: mmm-five said: The buyer's contract is with YOU (the trader), not the specialist.
Therefore the buyer is well within their rights to expect YOU (the trader) to sort it out.
As a trader, you cannot sell a car without the buyer having their standard consumer rights - i.e. if the car breaks shortly after sale then it's probably down to an existing problem.
The trader then has to seek compensation from the specialist in whatever manner they see fit - however if the specialist are saying there's no warranty as the car's been sold on, then all I can suggest is to carefully read the warranty that they supplied, if they didn't supply you with the T&Cs then point that out to them as well.
It could be that there was something wrong before the cambelt was changed, or that something has been fitted/refitted incorrectly and the cambelt is just a symptom of the main problem. I would agree with this in the main. You are the dealer, the person who bought the car has a contract with you (oh, and for the avoidance of doubt, IF you are a trader then ALL your vehicles sold in the course of business are sold with an implied warrant). I would dispute the idea that any term which states there is no warranty in the event the vehicle is sold would be valid, regardless of it's existence. There are a number of other factors in that as well, did you know there were T&Cs, was this clause expressly pointed out to you? (I doubt it from what you are saying) Did you get a receipt with T&Cs on it etc. etc. reciept is- as expressed in original post- I would also like to point out that the vehicle didnt break down in the Uk, but driven abroad in Europe- Again im not sure how this effects the 'claim' in terms of the new owner- but if the car is then being driven hundreds of miles into europe- unknown raods & conditions- Either way thats I guess really besides the point- No one has actually stated yet how long the implied contract lasts- Sale was 1 month ago- & im yet to discover how many miles are covered- THanks
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Jasandjules
21,345 posts
56 months
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Sorry, not a clue where you've identified whether or not there are terms and conditions upon the receipt provided by the specialist for the work done. Might just be the way I am reading your post.
Length of time of implied warranty? There is no set answer (it used to depend on all manner of things, mainly if the judge liked you or the car dealer ;-) ), but I would assure you that within a month will be held to be the fault of the trader. I don't have a definitive answer as to whether or not the new implied terms in the Sale of Goods Act (i.e. if a fault appears within six months it is deemed to have existed at the point of sale) will apply to second hand vehicles or not. I rather suspect it will.
ETA - oh, the purchaser could reasonably have a claim in negligence against the specialist as well, though of course they can more easily pursue you for it, then it falls to you to pursue the specialist I am afraid.
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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Jasandjules said: Sorry, not a clue where you've identified whether or not there are terms and conditions upon the receipt provided by the specialist for the work done. Might just be the way I am reading your post.
Length of time of implied warranty? There is no set answer (it used to depend on all manner of things, mainly if the judge liked you or the car dealer ;-) ), but I would assure you that within a month will be held to be the fault of the trader. I don't have a definitive answer as to whether or not the new implied terms in the Sale of Goods Act (i.e. if a fault appears within six months it is deemed to have existed at the point of sale) will apply to second hand vehicles or not. I rather suspect it will.
ETA - oh, the purchaser could reasonably have a claim in negligence against the specialist as well, though of course they can more easily pursue you for it, then it falls to you to pursue the specialist I am afraid.
There are no Expressed T&C for warrenty from Specialist- Steve
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Deva Link
8,993 posts
72 months
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Jasandjules said: I don't have a definitive answer as to whether or not the new implied terms in the Sale of Goods Act (i.e. if a fault appears within six months it is deemed to have existed at the point of sale) will apply to second hand vehicles or not. I rather suspect it will. It does. The only caveat is that you have to take account of the price paid for the car. ie a £200 banger can't be expected to be fault free for 6mths. However the car referred to in this thread was £15K so there's no question of that being an issue. There's a summary here (this was just the first hit on Google): http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/core.nsf/a/tsusedcars
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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Deva Link said: Jasandjules said: I don't have a definitive answer as to whether or not the new implied terms in the Sale of Goods Act (i.e. if a fault appears within six months it is deemed to have existed at the point of sale) will apply to second hand vehicles or not. I rather suspect it will. It does. The only caveat is that you have to take account of the price paid for the car. ie a £200 banger can't be expected to be fault free for 6mths. However the car referred to in this thread was £15K so there's no question of that being an issue. There's a summary here (this was just the first hit on Google): http://www.newcastle.gov.uk/core.nsf/a/tsusedcars Thanks for that link- I guess its a can of Worms really in terms really- As was / is the best course of action- to liase with the owner & specialist to resolve it- any more comments welcomed- Again I am stressing I want to find out who really has to 'chase' if you like the repair- If its me then fair enough- Perhaps some can comment on the specialist side- thanks
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Deva Link
8,993 posts
72 months
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Leanne1 said: Perhaps some can comment on the specialist side- I think that is a can of worms. The specialist certainly has no liability towards the new owner. Whether he has liability to you as the person who paid the bill, even though you don't now have the car, I'm really not sure. You often see comments that guarantees aren't transferable, but whether that holds up or not, I don't know. Yours would be a business to business transaction, so you don't have the legal protection that a private consumer would have. In the abscence of other comments I could only suggest that you ask the specialist to repair the car. If he says no then get it done and send him the bill. If he doesn't pay then sue him.
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odyssey2200
11,429 posts
36 months
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Surely the manufacturer of the belt supplies its belts with a warranty?
IMHO the fact you sold the car does not absolve the specialist of any responsibility for their poor workmanship.
The change of owner does not have any bearing on the life expectancy of the part or its servicability.
PS
either you are a trader or you're not.
Which is it?
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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odyssey2200 said: Surely the manufacturer of the belt supplies its belts with a warranty?
IMHO the fact you sold the car does not absolve the specialist of any responsibility for their poor workmanship.
The change of owner does not have any bearing on the life expectancy of the part or its servicability.
PS
either you are a trader or you're not.
Which is it? I would be a trader- In terms of the repair- Would it not be sensible to get a second opinion for ROUTE casuse of failure before the specialist suddenly tries to avoid liability- thanks
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odyssey2200
11,429 posts
36 months
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difficult one. I was service manager in a franchised dealership and at the customer request we fitted an exchange engine to his car. He located and supplied the engine. The engine was delivered with a belt in a box taped to the top. We fitted it and 3 weeks later it seriously overheated, Engine supplier sends a second engine and new belt. A week or so later the same happens. Engine supplier decides its is not his fault but ours. So begins the legal battle, I the end while we are investigating the fault one of mt techs fits a genuine belt and happens to notice that the timing marks in the pattern belt are 4 teeth out on the injection pump. We had all sorts of "experts" produce reports and it ended up at arbitration. The engine manufacturer and the belt manufacturer told the court that 3 teeth out would make do difference and that it was the way we fitted the engine that caused the damage. Judge ruled in their favour and we had to pay for the repairs. Strangely once we fitted a genuine belt and rebuilt the engine, it was fine. So you will excuse me if I have little of no faith in "experts" As the representative of a number of car manufacturers I have seen many " expert" reports most of which are total s  te, inconclusive and biased toward what the customer (who is paying the man) wants to hear. While I do not know the financial situation the honourable thing to do would be to give the man his money back and sue the garage for either poor workmanship or supplying defective parts. none of which, IMHO were altered by the fact that you sold the car to another RK.
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paddyhasneeds
3,289 posts
37 months
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What's the cost of the repairs?
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odyssey2200
11,429 posts
36 months
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paddyhasneeds said: What's the cost of the repairs? Not many engines are "safe" nowadays  Could be looking at head, pistons and all the valves in a WCS. Might get away with the head off and a few valves if VERY lucky. depending how it was being driven when it broke.
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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paddyhasneeds said: What's the cost of the repairs? unknown- yet- not been down that road just yet- In terms of Sueing the workshop- WHO DECIDES IN COURT in terms of final reason for belt snapping- For example- 3 different engineers- Main dealer + specialist + original specialist may all jump to different conclusions-??- At the end of the day- in terms of common sense- I took a car that was working fine, had the belt + water pump changed- the 3 weeks later belt snaps- Surley there is no component that effects that except the parts of the cambelt kit & water pump....
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Jasandjules
21,345 posts
56 months
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Leanne1 said: WHO DECIDES IN COURT in terms of final reason for belt snapping-
For example- 3 different engineers- Main dealer + specialist + original specialist may all jump to different conclusions-??- The judge does. They make a finding of "fact". They will decide which experts etc. they believe. Best way to win is to get an independant expert to produce a report which identifies the fault, and the reasons for it. Ideally, if you can get two, better yet. Also, the cost of the report can be recovered from the specialist in the event they are found at fault. OK, so if there are no express Terms on the receipt then upon what basis is the specialist attempting to negate liability? This can be key for you as I read your posts. At this point, if I were you I would write to the specialist and suggest a "jointly instructed expert" - namely you each agree to follow the findings of an expert you both agree upon. The costs of instruction and the report to be paid by the party at fault. In the event that they refuse, then you have a stronger costs argument.
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750turbo
394 posts
51 months
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odyssey2200 said: The engine manufacturer and the belt manufacturer told the court that 3 teeth out would make do difference and that it was the way we fitted the engine that caused the damage. I find that a wee bit worrying, anyone else? Oh and have one of these... 
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Leanne1
Original Poster
40 posts
43 months
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Jasandjules said: Leanne1 said: WHO DECIDES IN COURT in terms of final reason for belt snapping-
For example- 3 different engineers- Main dealer + specialist + original specialist may all jump to different conclusions-??- The judge does. They make a finding of "fact". They will decide which experts etc. they believe. Best way to win is to get an independant expert to produce a report which identifies the fault, and the reasons for it. Ideally, if you can get two, better yet. Also, the cost of the report can be recovered from the specialist in the event they are found at fault. OK, so if there are no express Terms on the receipt then upon what basis is the specialist attempting to negate liability? This can be key for you as I read your posts. At this point, if I were you I would write to the specialist and suggest a "jointly instructed expert" - namely you each agree to follow the findings of an expert you both agree upon. The costs of instruction and the report to be paid by the party at fault. In the event that they refuse, then you have a stronger costs argument. This ^^ in terms of an agreed specialist is a great idea & one I would probably like to visit can you refuse origanal specialist repair... in favour of a different one? Thanks
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