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Mill Wheel

Original PosterOriginal Poster

1,691 posts

23 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th November quote
It seems that the abuses of the RIPA powers are set to lead to their withdrawal, according to several papers... here is one.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tow...

The Independent said:
Town halls set to lose surveillance powers

By Jack Doyle, Press Association
Wednesday, 4 November 2009

Town halls could be stripped of their powers to use surveillance to tackle trivial offences such as dog fouling under plans published today.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson is expected to outline concrete proposals for changes to the controversial Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa).

A Government consultation launched earlier this year suggested councils should not be able to use the surveillance powers to combat so-called bin crimes and other low level offences.

The Home Office will publish responses to the consultation and indicate how the law will be changed.

Earlier this week Mr Johnson said using Ripa powers for trivial purposes could undermine the case for using them when they are needed.

It was never acceptable to use Ripa powers on people whose dogs foul the streets or who put their bins out early, he said.

"The public willingly accept that in their efforts to bring criminals to justice, the police should be able to locate people by their mobile phone records," he said.

"But they will not accept such powers being used to spy on people who put their rubbish out on the wrong day, or let their dogs foul the streets, because this is clearly not proportionate.

"There is no evidence that such practice is widespread - but I want to make it clear that in no circumstance is it acceptable."

"If agencies use Ripa powers for such trivial reasons, the case for using them to track down serious offenders who put public safety at risk rapidly diminishes in the eyes of the public.

Town hall chiefs have suggested senior councillors should have to approve Ripa authorisations in order to provide greater accountability.

The Local Government Association (LGA), in its submission on the proposed changes, also suggested putting members of the public on scrutiny committees to examine Ripa decisions.

Councillor Les Lawrence said: "There have been concerns that some local councils have not used Ripa proportionately, and the LGA wrote to all authorities last year to argue that the use of surveillance to tackle dog fouling and littering ... was not appropriate.

"The use of surveillance should be reserved for dealing with serious criminals like fly-tippers, benefit cheats, counterfeiters and loan sharks. Time and again, these are just the type of crimes that residents say they want to see tackled."

Alex Deane, director of Big Brother Watch, said: "Ripa abuse is rampant - from spying on dog walkers to people's dustbins, to parents wanting their children to go to schools in a particular catchment area.

"The bottom line is that Ripa needs massive reform. Unelected and unaccountable council officials shouldn't be able to intrude into our lives as they currently do."

Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: "Liberty has long campaigned against disproportionate snooping. We are representing Jenny Patton in her legal action against Poole Council for using intrusive powers sold in the name of fighting serious crime and terrorism to spy on an innocent family.

"The Government should understand that tinkering at the edges of the Ripa law is not enough. Only a complete overhaul will restore public trust in lawful surveillance and political promises."
It is no use leaving it to senior councillors to oversee this - they have already shown to have been sleeping on the job, or actively engaging in abuse of the powers given already!
For once Shami Chakrabarti - a person for whom I have no particular respect - has hit the nail on the head.
It is the flagrant abuse of the powers which is making even Shami seem acceptable - and which will see the public further increase their dislike for authority of ANY sort.

Is this likely to be an issue that affects CCTV?

inthedark

84 posts

35 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th November quote
Surely changing this will have no effect when the new seizure and entry by virtually anyone come
into force.

Mr_annie_vxr

6,377 posts

38 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th November quote
Except they always could use them before RIPA, all RIPA did was set in place how and the jutifications and hoops etc that were not there before. RIPA did not confer much on anyone it just formalised stuff they were already doing.

Fly tipping has been monitored by surveillance for years and to be honest so it should be as it is the only way to catch them.


CharlieTwo

482 posts

36 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th November quote
Mill Wheel said:
Town hall chiefs have suggested senior councillors should have to approve Ripa authorisations in order to provide greater accountability.
This comment intrigues me... Does anybody know what the oversight is at the moment within local authority RIPA applications? Anybody know who signs off on them now? Or does the person wanting it just write the authority and sign it off themselves?

I ask because within our job as BiB, there is a process that requires authorisation from the brass - an Inspector for the lower level applications and a Superintendent for the more in-depth ones. That is then overseen by the unit which processes RIPA requests where it is for something like account details. The Officer signing it off will ask lots of questions if our original application is not sufficiently detailed as to why we have to go down that route, why it's justified against the Subject's right to privacy, what the risk of collateral intrusion is, etc...

Mill Wheel said:
Is this likely to be an issue that affects CCTV?
Only for covert CCTV. I believe overt town centre/Police type CCTV does not require a RIPA authority.

Mill Wheel

Original PosterOriginal Poster

1,691 posts

23 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th November quote
I can see what is irritating the public...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/8343865....

BBC report said:
Council 'spied on woman 21 times'

A woman was spied on by her council 21 times to find out whether she lived in the catchment area of a school, a tribunal has heard.

Jenny Paton, 40, is taking Poole Borough Council to a tribunal over its use of the Investigatory Powers Act.

The mother-of-three claims a council official documented her movements and those of her partner, Tim Joyce.

The Investigatory Powers Tribunal heard the surveillance occurred over three weeks around last February.

It is claimed the council used its investigatory powers to find out whether the family lived at an address in the catchment area for Lilliput First School.

Gordon Nardell, representing the family, told the tribunal the case was about "liberty" and the "extraordinary powers" of local authorities.


This local authority played fast and loose

He said: "The complainants have and were found to have played by the rules but this local authority played fast and loose."

Mr Nardell also told the hearing Ms Paton's family could have been proven to have been living in the right area by other means than spying.

He said it was "quite extraordinary" that the surveillance - over three weeks last February - was authorised.

Investigators were watching "comings and goings" from the family's home address and following a car, he said.

Mr Nardell added: "There is plainly an interference with home life."

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (Ripa), which sets the parameters of public bodies' use of surveillance, was introduced in 2000.

The hearing is expected to last two days.
This seems to most of the public to be a squandering of public funds - needless expenditure and use of resources.
It seems to me that with the recent revelation that CCTV is not solving crime, merely displacing it, that the public will come to see CCTV as a further waste of money - not a view I share, but I can see why they would think that!

In the current economic climate, people are beginning to question expenditure at every level, and hiring investigators instead of bin men, or teaching staff will lead to disillusionment, and rebellion.
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BDZ

22 posts

3 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th November quote
Councils should never have been given RIPA powers in the first place, they have no sense of proportion when they seem to use them.

FishFace

2,723 posts

35 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
RIPA is far too bureaucratic for the police, and far too powerful for councils.


streaky

8,795 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
RIPA is not being withdrawn. All that is happening is a tightening of the rules for its use by some of the increasing numbers of government organisations that can use RIPA.

For example, as announced yesterday, the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission will be given powers to use RIPA.

Officials in Northern Ireland will also be given the power use use RIPA to help them "identify who is dumping hazardous waste". Now some might see that as an appropriate purpose, but consider that the ever-widening definition of "hazardous waste" includes paints, old vehicles and electrical equipment such as television sets, computers and mobile phones. I.e., by putting these things in your domestic bin you commit an offence. BTW, it also includes anything containing asbestos (blue and brown, and the essentially harmless white) ... by definition, that includes your body. So don't put bodies in your bin.

Currently within local councils, relatively junior officers can authorise the use of directed surveillance. They are supposed to record these, but I suspect that not all are properly recorded or reported.

Streaky

Mojooo

529 posts

7 months

[news] 
Saturday 7th November quote
CharlieTwo said:
Mill Wheel said:
Town hall chiefs have suggested senior councillors should have to approve Ripa authorisations in order to provide greater accountability.
This comment intrigues me... Does anybody know what the oversight is at the moment within local authority RIPA applications? Anybody know who signs off on them now? Or does the person wanting it just write the authority and sign it off themselves?

I ask because within our job as BiB, there is a process that requires authorisation from the brass - an Inspector for the lower level applications and a Superintendent for the more in-depth ones. That is then overseen by the unit which processes RIPA requests where it is for something like account details. The Officer signing it off will ask lots of questions if our original application is not sufficiently detailed as to why we have to go down that route, why it's justified against the Subject's right to privacy, what the risk of collateral intrusion is, etc...

Mill Wheel said:
Is this likely to be an issue that affects CCTV?
Only for covert CCTV. I believe overt town centre/Police type CCTV does not require a RIPA authority.
Well we all have our own opinions on what Surveillance should be and could be used for...obviously they differ

In my experience at one council they used RIPA and it was signed off by the head of that dept of the council, he is about 2 stages away from the top of the council - so fairly senior. have to go through all the justification forms tec

Jasandjules

21,357 posts

56 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th November quote
Mojooo said:
In my experience at one council they used RIPA and it was signed off by the head of that dept of the council, he is about 2 stages away from the top of the council - so fairly senior. have to go through all the justification forms tec
No one should have their privacy and home life interfered with without the involvement of an independant arbiter of fact - a court.

No muppet from any council could or should have any of these powers.

Mojooo

529 posts

7 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th November quote
Jasandjules said:
Mojooo said:
In my experience at one council they used RIPA and it was signed off by the head of that dept of the council, he is about 2 stages away from the top of the council - so fairly senior. have to go through all the justification forms tec
No one should have their privacy and home life interfered with without the involvement of an independant arbiter of fact - a court.

No muppet from any council could or should have any of these powers.
well all it means is that the courts would have an extra burdern - do they have the resources for it?

What we need is for the govt to make it clear what surveillance can and cannot be used for.

Jasandjules

21,357 posts

56 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th November quote
Mojooo said:
well all it means is that the courts would have an extra burdern - do they have the resources for it?

What we need is for the govt to make it clear what surveillance can and cannot be used for.
It is a small price to pay for the sanctity of the privacy of the individuals. The state is here to protect them, NOT the other way around.

ETA - furthermore, there ought to be only a very few situations where such powers would be invoked given the nature of those powers (if they were to follow the reason for the law, rather than to spy on someone for putting too much rubbish in their bin or seeking to send their child to a particular school) and the justification for the creation of the legislation in the first place.

No, we do not need the Govt to do anything, they cannot be trusted to tie their own shoelaces, stick to their policies, nor indeed tell the truth at any given time. We need the independant judiciary acting as a check and balance upon the powers of the state. Esepecially when those powers are wide ranging, and given to those who ought not have such powers.

Edited by Jasandjules on Sunday 8th November 17:26

Mojooo

529 posts

7 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th November quote
What was the justification for the legislation in the first place?


If you don't have some central organisation calirfying what it is suitable for then you would have 1 council using it for fly tippers and maybe another not using it for fly tippers - not exactly ideal is it?

Jasandjules

21,357 posts

56 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th November quote
Mojooo said:
What was the justification for the legislation in the first place?
Serious crime.

Put it this way, it wasn't debated in Parliament as a way to spy on households who put out too much rubbish etc. You can check on Hansard.

Mojooo

529 posts

7 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th November quote
I personally dont have a problem with some of the surveillance issues you might have... but could someone clarify

The RIPA just provides a framework that people that can do surveillance must fllow

before RIPA the police could do surveillance etc - but all of these other bodies couldnt unless they had police help ?

after RIPA came in they were then given surveillance powers and also have to follow ripa?

is there a seperate act elsewhere that laid out who could actually do surveillance?
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