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JohnnyJones

Original PosterOriginal Poster

150 posts

5 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Anyone come across this?

A friend has had a breath test of 96 at the station after the roadside test was "erratic". He said that there must be a mistake and asked for a blood test but was refused.

He had had 1 beer after work.

He has a stomach ulcer and is on medication for it. Has anyone seen this condition affect the intoximeter?

Thoughts?

Andyr86

156 posts

26 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
JohnnyJones said:
Thoughts?
Your friend is a liar.

Engineer1

1,854 posts

36 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Get to a specialist solicitor, and a specialist doctor to see if the result can be repeated in a controlled manner.

HRG.

39,695 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Andyr86 said:
JohnnyJones said:
Thoughts?
Your friend is a liar.
Stomach acid is evil stuff, I produce too much and on a bad day it tingles if I lick my lips... It may or may not have an effect butit is worth looking into IMO.

Derek Smith

5,405 posts

75 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
The offence is driving with the proportion of alcohol to blood over a prescribed limit. There is a direct relationship between the proportion of alcoholin the brath to alcohol in the blood.

Defences that have succeeded include spiked drink, the premise being that the driver had no way of knowing nor realising he had so much alcohol in his blood.

In this case though we have a problem. 96 is high. The defence of not realising is well out the window unless the breath test did not accurately reflect the blood level for some specific reason. To prove to the satisfaction of the court that stomach ulcers were the cause of such a high reading I would suggest some scientific proof would be required.
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HRG.

39,695 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
IF, and I emphasise the if, someone had LPR the contents of the stomach are free to leak up into the oesophagus as the valve at the top of the stomach leaks.

Could this allow alcohol from the stomach to affect the reading as a person without LPR would have a sealed stomach?

It could be like blowing your breath over a pint of beer...

Soovy

21,999 posts

98 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
JohnnyJones said:
Anyone come across this?

A friend has had a breath test of 96 at the station after the roadside test was "erratic". He said that there must be a mistake and asked for a blood test but was refused.

He had had 1 beer after work.

He has a stomach ulcer and is on medication for it. Has anyone seen this condition affect the intoximeter?

Thoughts?
I think he should start choosing a bicycle.

He is well over. Tough luck.

E-one

63 posts

10 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Some drugs used in treatment of gastric ulcers, like cimetidine, do increase blood alchohol levels.

HRG.

39,695 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Soovy said:
JohnnyJones said:
Anyone come across this?

A friend has had a breath test of 96 at the station after the roadside test was "erratic". He said that there must be a mistake and asked for a blood test but was refused.

He had had 1 beer after work.

He has a stomach ulcer and is on medication for it. Has anyone seen this condition affect the intoximeter?

Thoughts?
I think he should start choosing a bicycle.

He is well over. Tough luck.
GERD Impact on Breath Test
Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD) is a common disease that affects approximately 25 to 30 percent of the U.S. population. GERD is a chronic condition that results from esophagus deterioration from stomach acid eruptions over time. Mark Scott and Aimee R. Gelhot, Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease: Diagnosis and Management, 59 Am.Fam. Physician 1161 (1999) (available online at www.aafp.org/afp/990301ap/1161.html). The impact on breath testing is whether alcohol erupting from the stomach into the mouth from gastric reflux (generally a silent response) poses a problem with accurate breath testing during a 20-minute deprivation period. Research has been minimal to nonexistent on this issue. Research conducted to try to mimic gastric reflux is problematic because of a very small non-representative population (ten people or less) sample, and some researchers used a compression belt to invoke eruption, in contrast to spontaneous and natural eruption.
In People v. Bonutti, _ Ill.App.3d _, 788 N.E.2d 331, 273 Ill.Dec. 22 (5th Dist. 2003), expert testimony identified that the defendant had suffered from GERD since 1992 and was being treated for the condition. The expert testified that alcohol, coffee, and carbonated drinks dilate the stomach and the lower esophageal sphincter. The reflux is silent, and regurgitation and reflux are synonymous. In Bonutti, the trial court properly suppressed the breath test when the defendant testified that he refluxed during the 20-minute observation period. However, the trial court properly declined to rescind the statutory summary suspension where the State rebutted the defendant’s claim the breath test was invalid.
In the State of Washington, the Washington State Patrol examined the issue of GERD and concluded safeguards should be implemented for fair and accurate breath testing. Their conclusions for proper breath alcohol testing suggested a sound forensic practice should be followed to ensure the integrity of the breath test and GERD recognition. The safeguards should include the following: at least a 15-minute pre-sample observation period, duplicate testing, instrument detection of mouth alcohol, trained and alert operators that ask appropriate questions, and visual observations looking for symptoms of GERD. Rod G. Gullberg, Breath Alcohol Analysis in One Subject with Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease. 46 J. Forensic Sci. 1498 (2001).
The problem in most breath testing programs is lack of training on GERD, absence of duplicate testing, and that pre-evidentiary test questions do not include information about GERD. In one Midwest state police program, a breath testing instructor testified that he purposely avoids the GERD issue in his breath test training program. The use of a continuous 20-minute observation period is supported again. An officer should be prohibited from driving a car, reading paperwork, turning his or her back on the defendant, and leaving the room during the 20-minute deprivation period. Anything other than continuous 20-minute observation should be prohibited to help ensure the integrity of the breath test. General compliance for a person who suffers from GERD is not acceptable.
Dr. Ronald Henson, Ph.D., C.P.C.T



GERD and LPR are to all intents the same thing. A breath test could prove incorrect, does he have the results of a blood test, that would be safer in someone with an acid reflux condition.

Soovy

21,999 posts

98 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
HRG. said:
Soovy said:
JohnnyJones said:
Anyone come across this?

A friend has had a breath test of 96 at the station after the roadside test was "erratic". He said that there must be a mistake and asked for a blood test but was refused.

He had had 1 beer after work.

He has a stomach ulcer and is on medication for it. Has anyone seen this condition affect the intoximeter?

Thoughts?
I think he should start choosing a bicycle.

He is well over. Tough luck.
GERD Impact on Breath Test
Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD) is a common disease that affects approximately 25 to 30 percent of the U.S. population. GERD is a chronic condition that results from esophagus deterioration from stomach acid eruptions over time. Mark Scott and Aimee R. Gelhot, Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease: Diagnosis and Management, 59 Am.Fam. Physician 1161 (1999) (available online at www.aafp.org/afp/990301ap/1161.html). The impact on breath testing is whether alcohol erupting from the stomach into the mouth from gastric reflux (generally a silent response) poses a problem with accurate breath testing during a 20-minute deprivation period. Research has been minimal to nonexistent on this issue. Research conducted to try to mimic gastric reflux is problematic because of a very small non-representative population (ten people or less) sample, and some researchers used a compression belt to invoke eruption, in contrast to spontaneous and natural eruption.
In People v. Bonutti, _ Ill.App.3d _, 788 N.E.2d 331, 273 Ill.Dec. 22 (5th Dist. 2003), expert testimony identified that the defendant had suffered from GERD since 1992 and was being treated for the condition. The expert testified that alcohol, coffee, and carbonated drinks dilate the stomach and the lower esophageal sphincter. The reflux is silent, and regurgitation and reflux are synonymous. In Bonutti, the trial court properly suppressed the breath test when the defendant testified that he refluxed during the 20-minute observation period. However, the trial court properly declined to rescind the statutory summary suspension where the State rebutted the defendant’s claim the breath test was invalid.
In the State of Washington, the Washington State Patrol examined the issue of GERD and concluded safeguards should be implemented for fair and accurate breath testing. Their conclusions for proper breath alcohol testing suggested a sound forensic practice should be followed to ensure the integrity of the breath test and GERD recognition. The safeguards should include the following: at least a 15-minute pre-sample observation period, duplicate testing, instrument detection of mouth alcohol, trained and alert operators that ask appropriate questions, and visual observations looking for symptoms of GERD. Rod G. Gullberg, Breath Alcohol Analysis in One Subject with Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease. 46 J. Forensic Sci. 1498 (2001).
The problem in most breath testing programs is lack of training on GERD, absence of duplicate testing, and that pre-evidentiary test questions do not include information about GERD. In one Midwest state police program, a breath testing instructor testified that he purposely avoids the GERD issue in his breath test training program. The use of a continuous 20-minute observation period is supported again. An officer should be prohibited from driving a car, reading paperwork, turning his or her back on the defendant, and leaving the room during the 20-minute deprivation period. Anything other than continuous 20-minute observation should be prohibited to help ensure the integrity of the breath test. General compliance for a person who suffers from GERD is not acceptable.
Dr. Ronald Henson, Ph.D., C.P.C.T



GERD and LPR are to all intents the same thing. A breath test could prove incorrect, does he have the results of a blood test, that would be safer in someone with an acid reflux condition.
I stand corrected - he should speak to Mr Loophole.


Strangely Brown

4,936 posts

58 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
That's all very well but it's only talking about breath testing. If he is over the limit then it would show up in the subsequent blood test, or not as the case may be.

HRG.

39,695 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Strangely Brown said:
That's all very well but it's only talking about breath testing. If he is over the limit then it would show up in the subsequent blood test, or not as the case may be.
Yup, I would say a breath test could well show up higher but a blood test should be accurate. It's not a loophole, it's just that with LPR it would be a bit like blowing over an open beer bottle irked

JohnnyJones

Original PosterOriginal Poster

150 posts

5 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Strangely Brown said:
That's all very well but it's only talking about breath testing. If he is over the limit then it would show up in the subsequent blood test, or not as the case may be.
He asked repeatedly for a blood test but was refused.

Russian Rocket

752 posts

63 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
HRG. said:
Soovy said:
JohnnyJones said:
Anyone come across this?

A friend has had a breath test of 96 at the station after the roadside test was "erratic". He said that there must be a mistake and asked for a blood test but was refused.

He had had 1 beer after work.

He has a stomach ulcer and is on medication for it. Has anyone seen this condition affect the intoximeter?

Thoughts?
I think he should start choosing a bicycle.

He is well over. Tough luck.
GERD Impact on Breath Test
Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD) is a common disease that affects approximately 25 to 30 percent of the U.S. population. GERD is a chronic condition that results from esophagus deterioration from stomach acid eruptions over time. Mark Scott and Aimee R. Gelhot, Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease: Diagnosis and Management, 59 Am.Fam. Physician 1161 (1999) (available online at www.aafp.org/afp/990301ap/1161.html). The impact on breath testing is whether alcohol erupting from the stomach into the mouth from gastric reflux (generally a silent response) poses a problem with accurate breath testing during a 20-minute deprivation period. Research has been minimal to nonexistent on this issue. Research conducted to try to mimic gastric reflux is problematic because of a very small non-representative population (ten people or less) sample, and some researchers used a compression belt to invoke eruption, in contrast to spontaneous and natural eruption.
In People v. Bonutti, _ Ill.App.3d _, 788 N.E.2d 331, 273 Ill.Dec. 22 (5th Dist. 2003), expert testimony identified that the defendant had suffered from GERD since 1992 and was being treated for the condition. The expert testified that alcohol, coffee, and carbonated drinks dilate the stomach and the lower esophageal sphincter. The reflux is silent, and regurgitation and reflux are synonymous. In Bonutti, the trial court properly suppressed the breath test when the defendant testified that he refluxed during the 20-minute observation period. However, the trial court properly declined to rescind the statutory summary suspension where the State rebutted the defendant’s claim the breath test was invalid.
In the State of Washington, the Washington State Patrol examined the issue of GERD and concluded safeguards should be implemented for fair and accurate breath testing. Their conclusions for proper breath alcohol testing suggested a sound forensic practice should be followed to ensure the integrity of the breath test and GERD recognition. The safeguards should include the following: at least a 15-minute pre-sample observation period, duplicate testing, instrument detection of mouth alcohol, trained and alert operators that ask appropriate questions, and visual observations looking for symptoms of GERD. Rod G. Gullberg, Breath Alcohol Analysis in One Subject with Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease. 46 J. Forensic Sci. 1498 (2001).
The problem in most breath testing programs is lack of training on GERD, absence of duplicate testing, and that pre-evidentiary test questions do not include information about GERD. In one Midwest state police program, a breath testing instructor testified that he purposely avoids the GERD issue in his breath test training program. The use of a continuous 20-minute observation period is supported again. An officer should be prohibited from driving a car, reading paperwork, turning his or her back on the defendant, and leaving the room during the 20-minute deprivation period. Anything other than continuous 20-minute observation should be prohibited to help ensure the integrity of the breath test. General compliance for a person who suffers from GERD is not acceptable.
Dr. Ronald Henson, Ph.D., C.P.C.T



GERD and LPR are to all intents the same thing. A breath test could prove incorrect, does he have the results of a blood test, that would be safer in someone with an acid reflux condition.
However Stomach ulcers and GORD (Americans cant spell oesophagus) are different diseases, although the same medication can be used to treat both. A stomach ulcer does not cause the contents of the stomach to be "refulxed"

Edited by Russian Rocket on Friday 6th November 14:58


Edited by Russian Rocket on Friday 6th November 14:58

HRG.

39,695 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
I'm just putting it forward as a suggestion to explain the anomaly. Ulcers and LPR, GERD etc. seem to go hand in hand.

Elroy Blue

1,632 posts

19 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Andyr86 said:
JohnnyJones said:
Thoughts?
Your friend is a liar.
Ditto!

teabagger

349 posts

24 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
Under what circumstances is a blood test offered instead of a breath test back at the station?

oldsoak

2,403 posts

29 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
teabagger said:
Under what circumstances is a blood test offered instead of a breath test back at the station?
When the evidential breath test machine is broken or not reading properly.
ETA..
or
They have taken medical advice that your condition maybe as a result of drug-taking, or

The police are satisfied that there is a medical reason that you should not or cannot provide a breath sample.

Edited by oldsoak on Friday 6th November 15:17

EATA
If you are going to use the GERD defence, you'd better get on first name terms with your doctor...he'll be asked to supply proof of your condition.

Edited by oldsoak on Friday 6th November 15:20

^Slider^

2,357 posts

76 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
oldsoak said:
teabagger said:
Under what circumstances is a blood test offered instead of a breath test back at the station?
When the evidential breath test machine is broken or not reading properly.
The reading the OP's friend stated was the lower reading.

It seems he was able to provide 2 specimins of breath and those 2 specimins were within a certain percentage of each other and as such are reliable. So no blood test would be offered.

I cant say i know alot about ulcers, but i would assume that should he have had a reflux then he would have known about it (maybe this is similar to burping)

However i would have thought that any stomach alcohol would dissapate quite quickly so you would get 1 high reading and one much lower reading to give a breath difference and as a result a blood test would be required (as the 2 readings would be outside of the percentage for a reliable reading).

I guess the question is, would 1 pint of beer have enough alcohol if swilled in the mouth to provide a reading of 94. ( i am again assuming that any reflux would be similar to swilling the alcohol)

Also he failed the roadside test, so if your friend really saying that the ulcer causes him to emit alcohol in his breath each time he breathes out at a level above the drink drive limit.

It may be possible, so i stand corrected if someone with more knowledge corrects me on this.

ETA after Oldsoaks edits:

If he failed or refused to provide a sample then the question of medical fitness to provide comes in "is there any medical reason why you can not provide a sample of breath" But hes provided the specimins so the medical question is bypassed.

Dont forget they are medical reasons why he CAN NOT provide the sample.

Edited by ^Slider^ on Friday 6th November 15:25

HRG.

39,695 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 6th November quote
oldsoak said:
teabagger said:
Under what circumstances is a blood test offered instead of a breath test back at the station?
When the evidential breath test machine is broken or not reading properly.
ETA..
or
They have taken medical advice that your condition maybe as a result of drug-taking, or

The police are satisfied that there is a medical reason that you should not or cannot provide a breath sample.

Edited by oldsoak on Friday 6th November 15:17

EATA
If you are going to use the GERD defence, you'd better get on first name terms with your doctor...he'll be asked to supply proof of your condition.

Edited by oldsoak on Friday 6th November 15:20
If you've genuinely got it that wouldn't be a problem yes
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