Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
The Lotus Elise (I've owned two and will probably buy another shortly) is wonderful in lots of ways, but has a horrible gearchange, is impractical (for a 'full' production car) and in S1 form had pretty snappy on-the-limit handling and an engine with a propensity to blow head gaskets.
Without wishing to sound like a defensive fanboy, I'd like to comment on this: You will find criticism below, so hopefully that seperates me from a fanboy!- Gearchange: A common complaint, however the gearchange on my S2 111S feels quite good actually, I've never found an issue with it. Maybe they vary, or I'm just not that picky about gearchanges?
- Brakes: you forgot these; they're far from ideal
My non servo assisted brakes needed a bit of work to improve them, but the introduction of a servo was disastrous - the early 111Rs had a frightening dead zone at the top of the pedal, rubbish weighting and the pedal sunk too low to heel and toe. It wasn't until the lower DBW throttle pedal was introduced in 2005 that the problem of relative heights was sorted. The brakes were the sole reason I bought an S2 111S rather than a 111R.
- Impractical for a full production car: Is "full production car" a binary attribute that you give to a car once it gets doors?
I think it's unfair to compare an Elise with a Boxster in that respect. Out of interest, have you owned a short-tail S2? The S1's good was so fiddly it put me off owning one completely, but the new shorter hood takes seconds rather than minutes to put up. NVH on a 111S or 111R Touring is very low (better still on the 111R), although they are still a pain on motorways, so much so that after a few years I bought another car for motorway use. The S2 boot is huge compared with the standard S1, but it still has a small opening and isn't hugely practical, I'l give it that. The inability to stow the hood anywhere other than the boot is a serious design overview - it nearly fits behind the seats - so annoying that another centimetre or so wasn't available to make that a real possibility.
- S1 handling - all sorted with the S2. I've tracked mine in dry, wet and thunderstorm conditions and never found any nasty handling traits. The S2 is lower and stiffer than the standard S1, so it contains the mass better, has bespoke tyres to balance the handling out better, and instead of generating slight lift at speed with a bias towards lift at the back as with the S1, the S2 generates slight downforce with a bias towards downforce at the back. It's a subtle effect, but I think a friend of mine calculated it to be equivalent to a strong guy leaning out of a nearby car and pulling or pushing the back of the car down (10-20kg equivalent weight for the force), so it's probably noticeable.
- Head Gasket Failure. That remains an occupational hazard if you want the lighter k series engine
I'm at 30k miles at present and no sign of anything yet, but when it happens I've got the funds waiting to repair it! 
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
Hey Sam... now it's your turn to answer my question.
Whose R500 did you drive and where?
There are very few of us about and I'd be interested what he or she thinks of their car.
I'll give you a couple of clues. How many Caterham dealers are there in the the UK and where are they located? And if I told you I live on the Cotswold escarpement, with a view down the Severn Vale to the Severn Bridges? Whose R500 did you drive and where?
There are very few of us about and I'd be interested what he or she thinks of their car.
Sam... have a good life - enjoy your Skoda. Just a top tip - If I were you I'd do what I did and get the hell out of the Cotswolds ASAP. It befuddles the brain!
I'm outtahere.
Sam_68 said:
RobM77 said:
You did understand that I meant my Elise didn't you? Sentence highlighted above. Assuming that you did read that properly, yes, I stand by that statement.
No, my apologies - I misread; I thought it was the Caterham that you were suggesting was the best road car you'd driven.I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you on the Elise; as an overall compromise for road use, it's up there with the best of them... though it still has some fairly major flaws (some of which I itemised above).
And others are probably better if you spend a lot of time doing track days, or a lot of touring.
Yes, with the Elise it's purely the drive down a B road that I enjoy. As you say, there are other cars that specialise more in other areas. My Z4 Coupé for example is far better than the Elise for touring; it's only just over 30% heavier than a 111R Touring spec (shocking, but true), yet has loads of boot space, far more power for higher speed touring, and really comfortable seats and a well appointed interior. The Cayman and 911 go a stage further than this (lower CofG, more power, nicer controls on the whole), though I can't stand the variable ratio steering, so they're off my list immediately. For track use obviously everything between an Elise and a single seater is a compromise, so I just choose to race a single seater
Radicals are jolly good though, and the SR4, 3 and 8 are still just about road legal so get extra brownie points for that.I do still stand by my comments about Caterhams though - no matter what you've driven, whether it be slicks and wings single seaters, Nobles or Exiges, or big GTs like Ferraris and Porsches, Caterhams are always special and unique. My dream garage has various cars in it, but there's always a Caterham in there.
I hate to interrupt a good fist-fight but the OP has not been much in evidence and given that the three threads he has started are:-
Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
996 GT3 Mark 1 or Mark 2?
Which is the best driving 911 after 1990?
I don't take his "not trolling" statement on face value
Anyway, seconds away, round 57
Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
996 GT3 Mark 1 or Mark 2?
Which is the best driving 911 after 1990?
I don't take his "not trolling" statement on face value
Anyway, seconds away, round 57
Colin Mill said:
I hate to interrupt a good fist-fight but the OP has not been much in evidence and given that the three threads he has started are:-
Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
996 GT3 Mark 1 or Mark 2?
Which is the best driving 911 after 1990?
I don't take his "not trolling" statement on face value
Anyway, seconds away, round 57
All perfectly reasonable questions, it's the responses that cause the problem! Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
996 GT3 Mark 1 or Mark 2?
Which is the best driving 911 after 1990?
I don't take his "not trolling" statement on face value
Anyway, seconds away, round 57
The only thing I take personally is myself, and I'm more than happy to discuss the cars that I own, have owned and have driven open mindedly without getting aggressive with anyone. Plenty of the rest of us are as well I've learnt a lot by reading threads like this, in fact I'm just off to check out that 996 GT3 mk1 vs mk2 thread! Lastly, what we must all remember is that just because one car is better than the next that doesn't make it better for all people, and equally both cars may well still be good cars in their own right.
Agreed - the whole issue is far too subjective to be worth getting into a punch-up about. I was reading a thread over on the Bentley section and the post by "2woody" here:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
is hard to argue with. If the car feels that good to him who are we to tell him he's deluded?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
is hard to argue with. If the car feels that good to him who are we to tell him he's deluded?
MoPho said:
"Technical innovation" is great for measurebating at the pub, but it doesn't necessarily make a car more fun or exciting to drive. The lack of innovation, and the fact that it is still relevant, is precisely what is so appealing about the Caterham.
True enough. But once you've got your head around the idea that nothing is perfect, you start looking for ways in which individual shortcomings could perhaps be improved. It's ironic that the average Caterham enthusiast's approach to this appears to support the Germanic principle of slow, stolid development over as many decades as it takes to iron out the flaws, whereas the guy who they set so much store by being responsible for their 'heritage' took as diametrically opposite a view as it's possible to hold: development was proof that you hadn't designed it right in the first place and if you wanted to gain an edge you looked for a clean sheet of paper.
I tend to leave the 'measurebating' to the fanboys and their screensavers, but can I give you a tip and suggest you avoid it if you ever find yourself in a British pub? We're not quite as outgoing as you Americans...
RobM77 said:
I'd like to comment on this:
Yes, they do vary: a lot! And the S2 is better than the S1 (and Toyota S2 better still, IMO).- Gearchange: A common complaint, however the gearchange on my S2 111S feels quite good actually, I've never found an issue with it. Maybe they vary, or I'm just not that picky about gearchanges?
I selected my first S1 almost entirely on the basis of its gearchange, because it was the only one of the several I test drove that even felt tolerable. By the time I'd fitted the linkage/bush kit and a quickshift, it was good enough for me to be able to say with a straight face that it was really quite good for a mid-engined car, but it was still pretty ropey compared to something like an MX5, Elan or Honda S2000.
My second Elise (S160) was nowhere like as good, but I bought it thinking I could sort it with the bush kit, quickshift and cable adjustment again. I was wrong. I suspect that a lot of it is down to the selector fork tolerances internally.
I am very picky about gearchanges, though. That, handling and steering feel are probably my top criteria. And MoPho's analysis of various cars on the last page is spot-on (though I disagree with him on the Elise) and will tell you a lot about my preferences.
RobM77 said:
* Brakes: you forgot these; they're far from ideal
I never really had any beef about these, but then I'm not particularly demanding when it comes to brakes, so long as they stop you and the pedal weights and positions lend themselves to H&T. Now that you reminded me, though, there was the issue of the MMC brakes, which my first S1 had: if you drove for a long time on the motorway in the wet, without touching them, you got absolutely nothing when you first hit the pedal... which could be a bit alarming if you weren't used to it. You got used to dabbing them every now and then in wet conditions, to clear the discs and keep a bit of heat in them. Oh, and the MMC brakes squeeled like a stuck pig, too.
RobM77 said:
* Impractical for a full production car: Is "full production car" a binary attribute that you give to a car once it gets doors?
No, once it gets its Type Approval certificate. LVTA gets you a bit more leeway, SVA/IVA kit cars a bit more than that, and one-off homebuilt specials get full credit even where credit may not especially be due.
To be fair to Lotus, I'm conscious that they were expecting Caterham-like production levels from the S1 and that the car's success took them by surprise.
RobM77 said:
Out of interest, have you owned a short-tail S2? The S1's good was so fiddly it put me off owning one completely, but the new shorter hood takes seconds rather than minutes to put up.
No, I haven't. To be honest, neither the hood nor the NVH ever really bothered me, but then I tend to drive everywhere hood down unless the weather is truly atrocious and half a lifetime driving open cars has left me deaf as a post and incapable of hearing anything much below the scream of the FW's Hewland.I thought the S1 hood was quite good, in a kind of swiss-army-knife/build-your-own-bivouac kind of way.
RobM77 said:
* S1 handling - all sorted with the S2. I've tracked mine in dry, wet and thunderstorm conditions and never found any nasty handling traits.
Yep, S2 is pretty much idiot-proof, but it is a bit more understeery, I find. My favourite is an S1 with wider rear tyres (111S or Sport 160). I could actually maintain an oversteer drift the S160 around roundabouts, but you had to be confident and measured with your steering and throttle inputs, and you got the definite feeling that if you got it wrong you would end up facing the wrong way.RobM77 said:
*Head Gasket Failure. That remains an occupational hazard if you want the lighter k series engine I'm at 30k miles at present and no sign of anything yet, but when it happens I've got the funds waiting to repair it!
Ditto. I've done similar mileage to you on K-series Elises (and the FW) and not yet had a failure. It wouldn't be a big deal for me anyway, 'cos I'd fix it myself, but I've known plenty of young lads have HGF on Elises when they have neither the skill not the cash to deal with it. I'm at 30k miles at present and no sign of anything yet, but when it happens I've got the funds waiting to repair it! RobM77 said:
I've never driven a perfect car, but I still think the Elise S2 111S is the best road car I've ever driven.
Its definitely up there, I admit, but I'm afraid I place too much weight on a really nice gearchange and the ability to play around near the limit of grip without getting nervous to think give the Elise top billing: Elan Sprint wins that for me, despite a different set of flaws and limitations.GetCarter said:
I'm outtahere.
Awwww... just when it was getting fun!And you haven't answered either of my questions, yet.
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 24th September 20:17
Well I used to own a Westfield and now have a Caterham so I think I'm in quite a good position to comment on this. Firstly I bought a Westfield as like many people on the face of it I thought that a caterham cant have been worth twice as much for almost the same car. How wrong I was.... if you look closley then you'll begin to see all the design compromises to account for the use of the donor parts ie heavy brake calipers, stub axles etc. A caterham on the other hand uses light weight triumph parts and is generally just much better engineered. Having had a problem with my westfield when a rear CV joint went pop I ended up having to swap the whole rear end diff drive shafts uprights etc etc as the CV joint couldnt be replaced and ended up having to convert the car to lobro type CV joints. Interestingly westfield didnt have any knowledge of the parts required and were an absolute waste of time. Personally I think your beter off getting a caterham as they are just so much better cars without even factoring in that most westfields have been assembled by muppets using a hammer and a pair of mole grips.
iiyama said:
Caterhams and westfields? Pah! Heres my Dax:-
OP do yourself a favour and open your mind further then these two. By all means do NOT dismiss either and go and drive them and drive the different engines and chassis that both marques offer. Do yourself a favour and look elsewhere to though.
You talk to a Caterham owner, their car is the best, (obviously!). Talk to a Westy owner and youll get the same answers, (obviously!). Talk to me and Ill tell you that I think the Rush is by far the best looking '7' out there and that mine is better then anyone elses because I built it, (including all the carbon work, (pre-preg obviously!!!!)). However none of the people you talk to are YOU, only you know whats best for you, no one else does. You also have to remind yourself, (honestly), what you intend to use the car for as this makes a big differnece as to what sort of engine you should go for.
Thats my ten penneth for what its worth! Enjoy your cars guys regardless of where it came from or what badge it wears.
Ian
guys I have learnt alot from this thread, but this DAX RUSH has really got me excited - really this looks like the real deal, especially those fitted with paddle shift! Theres a turbo version as well!! OP do yourself a favour and open your mind further then these two. By all means do NOT dismiss either and go and drive them and drive the different engines and chassis that both marques offer. Do yourself a favour and look elsewhere to though.
You talk to a Caterham owner, their car is the best, (obviously!). Talk to a Westy owner and youll get the same answers, (obviously!). Talk to me and Ill tell you that I think the Rush is by far the best looking '7' out there and that mine is better then anyone elses because I built it, (including all the carbon work, (pre-preg obviously!!!!)). However none of the people you talk to are YOU, only you know whats best for you, no one else does. You also have to remind yourself, (honestly), what you intend to use the car for as this makes a big differnece as to what sort of engine you should go for.
Thats my ten penneth for what its worth! Enjoy your cars guys regardless of where it came from or what badge it wears.
Ian
Sam_68 said:
Please gather round and listen as I once again grind my axe against Caterham and extoll the virtues of Westfields as I have done on every single thread about the subject in the last two years.....
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
Go on, please give us your opinions on 'heritage' once again! http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
Slow day at the Westfield factory again is it 'Sam'???
Perhaps this debate could be usefully moved forward if someone from the Westfield camp could tell us what the lowest cost of a factory built non-Q plate Westfield is and what it might be worth at, say 5 years old.
The same info for the DAX would be useful as well.
The same info for the DAX would be useful as well.
Edited by Colin Mill on Monday 27th September 12:13
Having been around these types of cars for nearly 10 years, and driven a Westfield and had a lovely drive back from Zolder in a mates 210bhp Nitron'ed and carbon'd Superlight R. There is a definitive answer. The Caterham is best. But it costs more. So it should be better shouldn't it?? Fit and finish impeccable by kitcar standards, first class components. If Caterham sold turnkey cars for the price of a turnkey Westfield, then quality would suffer. My next kitcar will almost certainly be a Caterham Superlight of some description. And I expect to lose not a penny in depreciation over a few years because I will buy secondhand for aabout £15k. And that is another reason why Caterhams are better. Residuals. As for handling, I can't really comment as the Caterham I drove had a expensive Nitrons set up properly, but anyone picking holes in it's steering feel and handlng would need to be shot!!! The car was a total adrenalin rush on track and only a 911GT2 race car could keep pace with us round Zolder. I want.
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