Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
Discussion
Colin Mill said:
Perhaps this debate could be usefully moved forward if someone from the Westfield camp could tell us what the lowest cost of a factory built non-Q plate Westfield is and what it might be worth at, say 5 years old.
The same info for the DAX would be useful as well.
The cheapest currently listed 'factory built' Westfield is the Sport 1800, at a smidge under £17K on the road. There are a number of cheaper variants, but they're listed as kits only; you'd presumably have to speak to Westfield themselves to get a quote.The same info for the DAX would be useful as well.
The equivalent Caterham (in terms of engine Spec) would be the Roadsport Ford Sigma 150, at £21,200.
I'm sure that trying to quote second hand values will just open up a can of worms, as it's too dependent on mileage, condition and other factors, but as a starter for 10 I'll suggest that nicely kept, low mileage examples would perhaps achieve £9.5K for the Westfield and maybe £12.5K for the Caterham?
...which would give a residual values of 56% and 59% respectively, but the Westfield would have lost its owner £7.5k, whereas the Caterham would have lost £8.7k.
Then, as I've mentioned above, you'd need to factor in the interest that you'd have paid (or earned, depending on whether you finance or are a cash buyer) on the extra £4.2K.
Obviously it's difficult to make a straight comparison on specification; for example the Westfield comes in pre-coloured gelcoat, whereas Caterham will charge you another £950 for the privilege of not having your aluminium turn to powder if you actually drive the thing on a regular basis.
For what it's worth the price differentials widen as you go up the performance range: the quickest standard factory Westfield (the Megabusa) is listed at £23K factory built and has a power:weight ratio close to the R400 (£33,600), but if you want to be generous you could compare it to the R300 (£29,500).
The best Westfield in terms of residual value is the XI, which IIRC is £19K new, factory built (I enquired myself a short while ago) and if kept in decent condition would make perhaps £16K, regardless of age.
I'm not sure you'll get a straight answer on Dax, 'cos I'm not sure they have a 'standard' factory built range with prices, but the Camber Compensation cars like Ilyama's seem to maintain their value quite well - I've never seen a decent one below £12.5K and £17K is more typical.
My motor cost around that to build Colin. Now I will admit to having access to a company that deals with Pre-preg, (the guy that owns it happens to be a very good friend of mine), so maybe, (considering the amount of carbon fitted to the car), its not a good example. However there is also a lot of Ti fitted and unfortunatly I dont know any suppliers so had to pay the going rate. Its dry sumped, has a trick shifter and various other goodies. It wieghs 495kg's and is mapped to a safe 186bhp, (actual figure is just over but Ill keep the numbers simple). Its geared a little low which gives it unbelievable acceleration, so on a good day with warm tyres 0-60 will be seen in around 3ish seconds. Top end suffers because of the low final drive but is in the region of 130mph which is fast enough in my book.
Now I have no idea how that matches up to the Caterham that your talking about but maybe you do as you know more about the marque!
I was offered £18.5k for it on Boxing day at a local meet but again I have no idea if I should have ripped the guys arm off or walked away, as it happens I did the latter because the car wasnt for sale.
Hope that helps with the figures!
Now I have no idea how that matches up to the Caterham that your talking about but maybe you do as you know more about the marque!
I was offered £18.5k for it on Boxing day at a local meet but again I have no idea if I should have ripped the guys arm off or walked away, as it happens I did the latter because the car wasnt for sale.Hope that helps with the figures!
Furyblade_Lee said:
Having been around these types of cars for nearly 10 years, and driven a Westfield and had a lovely drive back from Zolder in a mates 210bhp Nitron'ed and carbon'd Superlight R. There is a definitive answer. The Caterham is best. But it costs more. So it should be better shouldn't it?? Fit and finish impeccable by kitcar standards, first class components. If Caterham sold turnkey cars for the price of a turnkey Westfield, then quality would suffer. My next kitcar will almost certainly be a Caterham Superlight of some description. And I expect to lose not a penny in depreciation over a few years because I will buy secondhand for aabout £15k. And that is another reason why Caterhams are better. Residuals. As for handling, I can't really comment as the Caterham I drove had a expensive Nitrons set up properly, but anyone picking holes in it's steering feel and handlng would need to be shot!!! The car was a total adrenalin rush on track and only a 911GT2 race car could keep pace with us round Zolder. I want.
Some sense at last 
Iiyama - Many thanks for the figures. I picked the base model, ready-built "new at first registration" as an interesting benchmark as anything kit-built or using used/reconditioned parts introduces additional variables that make the comparisons difficult. However, the other point I was making is that, contrary to what some people keep trying to push, the Caterham, at the entry level, is extremely well priced. Of course the Current Classic with the DD rear-end finished in bare ali was also exactly what I was looking for - I would actually have paid extra to have it in bare ali as my father built an all-aluminium special and, as a consequence nothing but nothing beats the look of bare ali (I have nothing at all against carbon BTW - I was one of the founding directors of Carbon Technology Ltd - but for my cars it's ali every time). Ultimate straight-line performance was also not important to me as, with a seven it seems to miss the whole point of the car.
Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater. The build was a doddle and the factory backup for the build was first class (thanks James!)
Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater. The build was a doddle and the factory backup for the build was first class (thanks James!)
Edited by Colin Mill on Monday 27th September 16:36
darth_pies said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Having been around these types of cars for nearly 10 years, and driven a Westfield and had a lovely drive back from Zolder in a mates 210bhp Nitron'ed and carbon'd Superlight R. There is a definitive answer. The Caterham is best. But it costs more. So it should be better shouldn't it?? Fit and finish impeccable by kitcar standards, first class components. If Caterham sold turnkey cars for the price of a turnkey Westfield, then quality would suffer. My next kitcar will almost certainly be a Caterham Superlight of some description. And I expect to lose not a penny in depreciation over a few years because I will buy secondhand for aabout £15k. And that is another reason why Caterhams are better. Residuals. As for handling, I can't really comment as the Caterham I drove had a expensive Nitrons set up properly, but anyone picking holes in it's steering feel and handlng would need to be shot!!! The car was a total adrenalin rush on track and only a 911GT2 race car could keep pace with us round Zolder. I want.
Some sense at last 
I agree with all of the above, although I think I'm due a few bullets coming my way from Lee 
In my humble opinion I think that the steering feel in an Elise is actually nicer, although I value the Caterham's greater linearity (it's a lighter car, and gets away honestly without power steering, rather than resorting to a few geo tricks like I suspect the Elise does). You can also feel the grip better in an Elise because you sit in the middle of the car and get the front and rear grip coming through in stereo, rather than in a Caterham where you feel the rear grip loads and not much from the front. The handling is of course what makes a Caterham, and for fun track use I think they're fantastic. For fast track use though, if you want to go really quickly and get satisfaction from gently working a car round the limit, I find Caterhams a bit too easy to transition between handling states and especially lacking in rear end grip, especially in the wet, and certainly composure over the bumps, being just a De Dion setup. Also, the high speed handling in a Caterham will always be quite understeerey due to the aerodynamics which lift the nose up at high speed. I expect a 2-11 is better in this respect, but it'll never be as light and instinctive as a Caterham, and certainly not as forgiving.In summary, for trackday use I think Caterhams are a flawed package; the rear axle is anachronistic and the aerodynamics compromise performance and handling more than in other cars. There's no doubt that in certain aspects of driving, an Elise, Exige or 2-11 is more capable and more rewarding. But, and this is a very very big but, I've not yet driven a better car for track days and fun road use than a Caterham. They're very forgiving and playful, whilst also being very alert and twitchy for interest and fun. They slide easily and playfully, which is huge fun, and if you want to drive on like you might a single seater you can, and they reward a delicate hand. They are absolutely everything anyone could ever want on a track. And on the road their diminutive size and compliant suspension allows you to make the best of just about any road, and the boot is surprisingly large, allowing proper touring if you want that. Plus they have a fantastic owners club and a huge network of indepedent specialists and parts suppliers, all of whom that I've dealt with I've found hugely passionate and professional. Oh, and they're extremely cheap to run as well, and don't depreciate heavily, so they're an ideal car to keep in the garage for sunny days. There's a jolly good reason that Caterham are still going strong after all these years, and that's because they're pretty much unbeatable at what they do. I'd recommend one to anyone.
Colin Mill said:
Iiyama - Many thanks for the figures. I picked the base model, ready-built "new at first registration" as an interesting benchmark as anything kit-built or using used/reconditioned parts introduces additional variables that make the comparisons difficult. However, the other point I was making is that, contrary to what some people keep trying to push, the Caterham, at the entry level, is extremely well priced. Of course the Current Classic with the DD rear-end finished in bare ali was also exactly what I was looking for - I would actually have paid extra to have it in bare ali as my father built an all-aluminium special and, as a consequence nothing but nothing beats the look of bare ali (I have nothing at all against carbon BTW - I was one of the founding directors of Carbon Technology Ltd - but for my cars it's ali every time). Ultimate straight-line performance was also not important to me as, with a seven it seems to miss the whole point of the car.
Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater. The build was a doddle and the factory backup for the build was first class (thanks James!)
Was only trying to give an idea of my car mate. Ali/carbon/wood dosent really matter what its built from as long as the owner enjoys it Im sure you'll agree? Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater. The build was a doddle and the factory backup for the build was first class (thanks James!)
Only gave the figures and build so it could be compared with something similar, although as you say its very dificult to make comparisons. I would add that there is nothing second hand on my car, I didn't want it and I also wanted an 09 plate and indeed thats what I got. Happy days!As for handling its by far the best car for this I have ever driven, however I havent driven a Caterham, a Westie or indeed any other type of seven replica so Im not qualified to debate this point any further!! Always up for a test drive of anyones car though if the offer arises and the circumstances are right!! Of course the offer would reciprocated! I also agree that straight line speed is not what these cars are about.
The main difference I can see is that you state the build of your car was a doddle, the Dax wasnt but that was partially because I made it more difficult then it needed to be due to getting some bespoke bits and pieces engineered and machined. The Rush is definatly a car you have to build rather then just 'put together', although maybe that discription is a bit simplistic. Hopefully you understand what Im trying to say.
iiyama said:
Was only trying to give an idea of my car mate. Ali/carbon/wood dosent really matter what its built from as long as the owner enjoys it Im sure you'll agree?
Absolutely, however I'm sure the Westfield contingent will be along soon to explain why we are both deluded for not wanting nice wrinkly, shrinky, cracky gelcoat all over 
Edited by Colin Mill on Monday 27th September 18:40
Furyblade_Lee said:
As for handling, I can't really comment as the Caterham I drove had a expensive Nitrons set up properly, but anyone picking holes in it's steering feel and handlng would need to be shot!!!
Yes, don't get me wrong; the Caterham has very good handling and steering feel; I'm on the record (Darth will no doubt be able to quote you the exact post, being as he's my greatest follower 
) as saying that I rate the steering as one of the points where Caterham does have a slight but definite edge over both Sylva and 'normal' Westfields. But there are cars that are significantly better; steering feel is a very personal thing and MoPho's (very accurate) assessment, back on page 5, of the Caterham as 'aggressive, precise and heavy' compared to the Elan and Westfield XI's 'dainty' will tell you where my preferences lie: I like the ultimate in precision and delicacy and rate the Elan and the Eleven, along with the Elise as significantly better than the Caterham, in this respect.
The Caterham's problem, of course, is the modern fashion for fat tyres: I've driven an original Seven and it's very, very similar to the Westfield Eleven.
For what it's worth, the best thing about my FW400 is that it gives the same beautifully light and precise feel that you get with the Eleven, but manages to do it with sticky, modern trackday rubber (Yoko A048R's) and thus a turn-in that's as quick and positive as the Caterham. That's a bit academic for the purposes of this discussion, of course, because you couldn't buy an FW if you wanted to, so it's not really an option for most people.
In terms of handling on the road I prefer the Westfield SEi to the Caterham (or the FW, which is too stiff), as it's a bit more compliant and progressive, hence more exploitable. The IRS Sylva is better than either though...
Colin Mill said:
Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater.
The question was about the cost of factory built cars.The cheapest complete kit (including engine) from Westfield costs £11.5K and includes weather gear and harnesses.
Since most people will be buying to a budget figure, though, it might be more sensible to turn the question round and think in terms of 'how much can I get for my money'?
In that event (and not that I would consider paper performance figures to necessarily be the critical factor in selecting a car by any stretch of the imagination), the question might be whether you buy yourself a Westfield MegaBusa that will do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and 0-100 in <10 seconds (and costs £9,950 for a full kit less engines, wheels and tyres), or a poverty-spec. Caterham (the 1.4 K-series 'Classic' at £13.3K) that does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and 0-100 eventually?
Sam_68 said:
The question was about the cost of factory built cars.
Yes, and the figure I quoted (£15,800) is for a factory built car.The fact that I chose to buy a kit doesn't enter into it.
Sam_68 said:
I prefer driving cars to polishing them!
So do I, and thanks to a tip from the motorcycle fraternity about bare ali - namely Bike Spray I have never had to polish the side skins in the 6 years I've had the car.Edited by Colin Mill on Monday 27th September 20:01
Colin Mill said:
Yes, and the figure I quoted (£15,800) is for a factory built car.
I quoted you on the £13K you claim to have paid for your own car... though Caterham says £16,300 factory built, and an extra £510 for an 'on the road' package, whatever that is; IVA test and number plates, I assume?I don't mind whether we compare factory built costs, or kit costs, but lets compare apples to apples as far as possible, eh? Whichever way you do it, the Caterham will cost you a chunk more.
Purely out of interest - their current price list quotes £13,300 for the poverty spec. model; did you manage to get a bit of a discount out of them, then?
eta: Ah, I see from your post above that you've had the car a while. Sorry, I made the assumption (what with you being a newby on the forum and all), that we were talking about current prices, not those that held 6 years ago?
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 27th September 19:41
Sam_68 said:
...the poverty spec. model; did you manage to get a bit of a discount out of them, then?
Perhaps I should remind you of a "I'm considerably richer than yow..." comment you made a few pages earlier. Anyway, I think we have established that a 'poverty spec.' Caterham is no more expensive than a 'poverty spec.' Westfield - a surprise to some I'm sure.
Colin Mill said:
Anyway, I think we have established that a 'poverty spec.' Caterham is no more expensive than a 'poverty spec.' Westfield - a surprise to some I'm sure.
Have we?I thought we said:
Colin Mill said:
Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater.
The cheapest complete kit (including engine) from Westfield costs £11.5K and includes weather gear and harnesses.Since most people will be buying to a budget figure, though, it might be more sensible to turn the question round and think in terms of 'how much can I get for my money'?
In that event (and not that I would consider paper performance figures to necessarily be the critical factor in selecting a car by any stretch of the imagination), the question might be whether you buy yourself a Westfield MegaBusa that will do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and 0-100 in <10 seconds (and costs £9,950 for a full kit less engines, wheels and tyres), or a poverty-spec. Caterham (the 1.4 K-series 'Classic' at £13.3K) that does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and 0-100 eventually?
I should add that 'complete kits' aren't the cheapest way into Westfield ownership, and hence don;t represent the 'poverty spec.' for the marque by any stretch of the imagination.
Sam_68 said:
Colin Mill said:
Anyway, I think we have established that a 'poverty spec.' Caterham is no more expensive than a 'poverty spec.' Westfield - a surprise to some I'm sure.
Have we?I thought we said:
Colin Mill said:
Anyway, as a kit I paid about £13k for my Caterham and added only a modest sum for weather gear, 4 points and a heater.
The cheapest complete kit (including engine) from Westfield costs £11.5K and includes weather gear and harnesses.Since most people will be buying to a budget figure, though, it might be more sensible to turn the question round and think in terms of 'how much can I get for my money'?
In that event (and not that I would consider paper performance figures to necessarily be the critical factor in selecting a car by any stretch of the imagination), the question might be whether you buy yourself a Westfield MegaBusa that will do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and 0-100 in <10 seconds (and costs £9,950 for a full kit less engines, wheels and tyres), or a poverty-spec. Caterham (the 1.4 K-series 'Classic' at £13.3K) that does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and 0-100 eventually?
I should add that 'complete kits' aren't the cheapest way into Westfield ownership, and hence don;t represent the 'poverty spec.' for the marque by any stretch of the imagination.
For people - the majority of people no doubt - who do not have the skills, the tools, the space, the spare time or the inclination to do even the most rudimentary kit assembly and for whom the performance of any Seven is more than adequate for their needs and who simply want to buy a new car and go and drive it we have established that they can go to Caterham and buy one as cheaply as they can get one from Westfield.
Edited by Colin Mill on Tuesday 28th September 09:12
Colin Mill said:
Anyway, I think we have established that a 'poverty spec.' Caterham is no more expensive than a 'poverty spec.' Westfield - a surprise to some I'm sure.
Colin Mill said:
Sam - I don't think I'm the self delusional Fanboy around here.
Ah, ok. Would you care to explain how £13.3K is 'no more expensive' than £11.5K, then?
I'm sure it works in your private universe, but my calculator is struggling to come to terms with it.
Colin Mill said:
For people - the majority of people no doubt - who do not have the skills, the tools, the space, the spare time or the inclination to do even the most rudimentary kit assembly and for whom the performance of any Seven is more than adequate for their needs and who simply want to buy a new car and go and drive it we have established that they can go to Caterham and buy one as cheaply as they can get one from Westfield.
In that rather specialist set of circumstances (I think you'll find that the vast majority of Seven-type cars of all marques are sold as kits), a 105bhp Caterham would be a couple of hundred quid less than a 150bhp Westfield.That's a bit like saying that BMW are cheaper than Skoda, because you can pick up a base model 1-series with a 1.6 litre engine for less than an Octavia VRs...
Like I say, perhaps in your private universe...
Sam_68 said:
a 105bhp Caterham would be a couple of hundred quid less than a 150bhp Westfield.
Yes, that's right - you finally seem to be getting the idea. And it would be about 75kg lighter as well.
As for the kit thing I think you are wrong about the proportion of kit-built sevens. From my six years on BC I gained the impression that those of us who had assembled our cars were distinctly in the minority.
Also, one of my long-standing interests both as a hobbyist and, in the last 20 years as a business, is aeromodelling. This has gone from a hobby dominated only 10 years ago by scratch-building and kit-building to a market now dominated by 'ready to fly' and 'almost ready to fly' products. There are two types of model manufacturer - those that have catered for the trend and those that have gone to the wall.
This change has been driven only by consumer preference and not additionally driven, as is the kit car market, by the steadily increasing discouragement from bureaucracy in the form of ever more awkward approvals and registration procedures.
Whether we like the trend or not, whatever proportion of cars that are kit built now, in this universe it's only going to get smaller.
Edited by Colin Mill on Tuesday 28th September 19:30
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