Sell a Caterham to me on its SAFETY MERITS(!!!!)
Discussion
bigairbox said: This is a shame. Noone could present to me anything other than the obvious things which as you can tell have not convinced me.
What did you want out of this thread
There aren't any secondary safety features on a 7 - no-one can sell you one based on something that isn't there !
Side impact is the main concern and all this stuf saying but you would die in any if your were hit in the side with a range rover is just crap...my point is that you are FAR MORE LIKELY in a caterham in its current state. Surely a longitudinal bar running form the back to the front like SIPS would offer something ...!!
No it wouldn't. The Caterham has not got enough structural integrity to allow you to bolt on a side-impact protection bar that would be of any use. SIPS works by linking the A and B pillars with a semi-rigid beam, a Caterham's structure doesn't have anywhere for something similar to connect to. The impact bars on race 7s are, as stated above, useful to protect only against the impact of other Caterhams.
As for having to drive stupidly to get it turn over is just stupid and naive. All you need is some stupid fukker in a modified fiesta whipping round a corner too wide on a muddy back road which you swerve to avoid and have to go into a field down an embankment. ....Id rather be in a fiesta at that point.
The chances of rolling a Caterham are still far lower than of rolling almost any other car in this circumstance. You would also have more chance of driving around Mr FK Witt or stopping in time, given the excellent attributes of the Caterham in these respects. If you were on a motorbike you wouldn't survive this in all probability - in a Caterham you might well be OK.
...oh but wait dying that way would be cool and almost heroic..."oh hes so cool he was a caterham driver"....NO!! What theyre going to say is "of course he died...he was in a bloody caterham...branches and rocks coming into the cockpit at all angles".
Yes. I feel the need to make this point quite forcefully: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY ONE just as riding a horse, motorbike, pushbike or jetski is optional - if it scares you don't do it
But listen guys the car is sold on EVERY OTHER ASPECT. ...unfortunately maybe these qualities only exist because of these coompromises..small and light but weak and unprotective. Bugger.
It's not especially weak by the standards of lightweight, open cars - you'd be little better off in the scenarios that worry you in a Honda Jazz, a Smart roadster, any open Lotus prior to the Elise, an original MX5, TVR Griffith, TVR Chimera.
7s are inherently less safe in an accident than most other cars. They are also less likely to get you into trouble through your own actions than almost any other car. You seem to be of the view that modern cars are totally safe in any accident scenario and 7s are unsafe at any speed. Once again - if you don't want to accept what dangers there are don't buy one.
i think this should answer your question-
when sat in any seven replica youre squished up against the side of the car, with about 1" of steel and ally between you and the elements up to around 8" above your legs, over that and theres thin air. now any four wheel drive s bumper is about 2 foot off the floor, so judging that there is jack and shit (jack left town btw) between you and a side impact from the 4wd, id say youll be in a lot of trouble.
when sat in any seven replica youre squished up against the side of the car, with about 1" of steel and ally between you and the elements up to around 8" above your legs, over that and theres thin air. now any four wheel drive s bumper is about 2 foot off the floor, so judging that there is jack and shit (jack left town btw) between you and a side impact from the 4wd, id say youll be in a lot of trouble.
bigairbox said: This is a shame. Noone could present to me anything other than the obvious things which as you can tell have not convinced me. Side impact is the main concern and all this stuf saying but you would die in any if your were hit in the side with a range rover is just crap...my point is that you are FAR MORE LIKELY in a caterham in its current state. Surely a longitudinal bar running form the back to the front like SIPS would offer something ...!!
As for my being over concerned and better off with a volvo Ill take as joke...but come on guys you cant just feel good about the situation by turning a blind eye to it...
As for having to drive stupidly to get it turn over is just stupid and naive. All you need is some stupid fukker in a modified fiesta whipping round a corner too wide on a muddy back road which you swerve to avoid and have to go into a field down an embankment. ....Id rather be in a fiesta at that point.
...oh but wait dying that way would be cool and almost heroic..."oh hes so cool he was a caterham driver"....NO!! What theyre going to say is "of course he died...he was in a bloody caterham...branches and rocks coming into the cockpit at all angles".
But listen guys the car is sold on EVERY OTHER ASPECT. ...unfortunately maybe these qualities only exist because of these coompromises..small and light but weak and unprotective. Bugger.
GO BUY A VOLVO!! HHhhhmmmm ..... lots of fun on that Sunday drive, take your gran along too!
Just to echo what everyone else has said in reply - what did you think people would tell you about a Caterham? That it had secret side mounted shields and airbags which actually deploy to save your life by repelling the encroaching 4x4 bullbar. Sorry to be facetious, but risk levels vary with every activity in life. In a Seven, there are greater risks in some aspects of driving it, and lesser risks in some other aspects, as Jaydee pointed out succinctly. You might as well ask us to convince you that crossing the road is safe, when we all know it isn't. Nothing is going to change that unless you radically change the nautre of crossing the road.
Similarly with motorbikes (a favourite comparison), you are exposed and vulnerable, and balanced on two wheels. Nothing will change that except putting a cage around you and adding four wheels. Voila, you no longer have a motorbike, but a car. With the gains in safety you lose the point and essence of a motorbike. Similarly with a Seven. Put in all the requisite safety features and it either stops being what it was and becomes a family MPV, or it becomes so expensive that few people can afford it. If you don't like the risk, don't participate in the activity.
Incidentally, the very title of the topic could arguably be seen as oxymoronic - like "sell me a Fiat Panda based on its HIGH PERFORMANCE".
I do agree that taken out of context, the comments about dying being cool in a sportscar appear rather silly. I don't really care about dying in a cool way either - I'd rather avoid it altogether. I think the point being made there was that you can increase your chances of living to a ripe old age by sitting in your front room and never going out and being bored to tears, or you can go out and do things which exhilarate you and run a higher risk of not reaching that ripe old age. I know which I'd rather do, and since we all elevate our risk by simply going down to the shops for a pint of milk, you might as well risk the bit extra and get a lot more for it. Personal choice I guess. Most exciting things are risky by their nature, and as I said before you really need to make your own decisions about what the risks are to you and whether you are prepared to take them.
So all in all of course you can be disappointed that there aren't the safety features that you hoped there might be on a Seven, but you can't be mad at us for not telling you about those non-existent things. Nobody is turning a blind eye to the situation, hence people have roll bars and four point harnesses, but we all make choices regarding the balance of risk in our lives, and you need to do that too instead of griping that this particular activity doesn't meet your standards for safety.
Similarly with motorbikes (a favourite comparison), you are exposed and vulnerable, and balanced on two wheels. Nothing will change that except putting a cage around you and adding four wheels. Voila, you no longer have a motorbike, but a car. With the gains in safety you lose the point and essence of a motorbike. Similarly with a Seven. Put in all the requisite safety features and it either stops being what it was and becomes a family MPV, or it becomes so expensive that few people can afford it. If you don't like the risk, don't participate in the activity.
Incidentally, the very title of the topic could arguably be seen as oxymoronic - like "sell me a Fiat Panda based on its HIGH PERFORMANCE".
I do agree that taken out of context, the comments about dying being cool in a sportscar appear rather silly. I don't really care about dying in a cool way either - I'd rather avoid it altogether. I think the point being made there was that you can increase your chances of living to a ripe old age by sitting in your front room and never going out and being bored to tears, or you can go out and do things which exhilarate you and run a higher risk of not reaching that ripe old age. I know which I'd rather do, and since we all elevate our risk by simply going down to the shops for a pint of milk, you might as well risk the bit extra and get a lot more for it. Personal choice I guess. Most exciting things are risky by their nature, and as I said before you really need to make your own decisions about what the risks are to you and whether you are prepared to take them.
So all in all of course you can be disappointed that there aren't the safety features that you hoped there might be on a Seven, but you can't be mad at us for not telling you about those non-existent things. Nobody is turning a blind eye to the situation, hence people have roll bars and four point harnesses, but we all make choices regarding the balance of risk in our lives, and you need to do that too instead of griping that this particular activity doesn't meet your standards for safety.
The Caterham roll bar is strong enough if the car goes upside down. For extra safety go for the FIA variety it is stronger and approved for racing (these can be retro fitted to any car).
Side impact is rare in a seven as these mostly occur when pulling out of junctions. If you look when you pull out it tends not to happen as much and anyway with the acceleration of a seven you can avoid it.
Very few people die in accidents in Caterham and most sevens are in a state where they are economic to repair after an accident. This is a testament to just how strong the chassis is and I have seen cars that have been in big accidents that have been just fine. One guy on the seven owners club spun his car into a curb at 40 mph the other day (his fault plus crap tyres). He was totally unharmed and only the towing eye broke off the chassis. The chassis was not bent in the slightest (he has had it checked). How many other cars could do this without damage?
If you are that worried about safety get a full roll cage and paint in McLaren orange (or even Day-Glo organge a la Dyno Rod vans). Put you lights on even in the day time and fit a 4-2-1 exhaust so people hear you coming. Most of the time people notice the seven because it is different. Be reassured that se7ens have one of the lowest loss ratios of any car that is insured for road use. This means that they have few accidents as %.
Any lingering doubts just have a look at the Magnificent 7 book by Chris Rees. That has details of French crash testing which the se7en passed with flying colours.
Side impact is rare in a seven as these mostly occur when pulling out of junctions. If you look when you pull out it tends not to happen as much and anyway with the acceleration of a seven you can avoid it.
Very few people die in accidents in Caterham and most sevens are in a state where they are economic to repair after an accident. This is a testament to just how strong the chassis is and I have seen cars that have been in big accidents that have been just fine. One guy on the seven owners club spun his car into a curb at 40 mph the other day (his fault plus crap tyres). He was totally unharmed and only the towing eye broke off the chassis. The chassis was not bent in the slightest (he has had it checked). How many other cars could do this without damage?
If you are that worried about safety get a full roll cage and paint in McLaren orange (or even Day-Glo organge a la Dyno Rod vans). Put you lights on even in the day time and fit a 4-2-1 exhaust so people hear you coming. Most of the time people notice the seven because it is different. Be reassured that se7ens have one of the lowest loss ratios of any car that is insured for road use. This means that they have few accidents as %.
Any lingering doubts just have a look at the Magnificent 7 book by Chris Rees. That has details of French crash testing which the se7en passed with flying colours.
Bigairbox - I think it's quite clear that you wouldn't feel comfortable in a Caterham so I suggest you look elsewhere.
I happily take any member of my family out in mine satisfied that defensive driving, planning, anticipation and observation along with the many positive attributes of the car described above result in a low risk, exciting experience.
There's plenty of "hairdresser" type sportscars about that will give you a comfortable but false impression of safety if you wish.
I happily take any member of my family out in mine satisfied that defensive driving, planning, anticipation and observation along with the many positive attributes of the car described above result in a low risk, exciting experience.
There's plenty of "hairdresser" type sportscars about that will give you a comfortable but false impression of safety if you wish.
Hey guys great response this time! I think I am sold on the caterham even with the safety issue. I am already a very defensive driver so would adapt well to a seven.
The day glo paint had crossed my mind - price of that anyone??
Re: the full roll cage, does that mean you cant use the all weather stuff too...or is the seven also the most versatile as well as fun car ive ever seen?!!
I already imagine how my behaviour would be if i was in a seven when im in particular situations in my Rover and I havent really been particularly put off. The only dodgy bits are in busy cut and thrust city driving but the speeds are so low anyway that there would be no danger really.
i just need to finance the thing now! i think co ownership with a mate and a 2nd crappy hatch or something and swap fortnightly or something is the solution for now!!
Ill need to erect a garage too!!
Cheers
The day glo paint had crossed my mind - price of that anyone??
Re: the full roll cage, does that mean you cant use the all weather stuff too...or is the seven also the most versatile as well as fun car ive ever seen?!!
I already imagine how my behaviour would be if i was in a seven when im in particular situations in my Rover and I havent really been particularly put off. The only dodgy bits are in busy cut and thrust city driving but the speeds are so low anyway that there would be no danger really.
i just need to finance the thing now! i think co ownership with a mate and a 2nd crappy hatch or something and swap fortnightly or something is the solution for now!!
Ill need to erect a garage too!!
Cheers
Day Glo is no longer a factory option. I think they will do it if you sign a disclaimer that you realise that this paint WILL fade because of the instability of the pigments. This is not the fault of Caterham but the nature of the paint. It is not cheap paint as it is very specialised and it is difficult to colour match after a bump.
COnsider McLaren Orange (called something else now), Kawasaki Green or bright yellow.
COnsider McLaren Orange (called something else now), Kawasaki Green or bright yellow.
THere are two types of cage for Caterhams
Roadsport cage: This is used (as the name suggests) in the Caterham Roadsport challenge and is suitable for use with a windscreen. This can have weather gear over the top but it does not fit as well as without a cage. I believe one of the owners club guys has modified his to fit better (head over to www.blatchat.com (owners club bulletin board for more advice).
Superlight Cage: Used in the Superlight challenge (now R400 challenge). Suitable only for use with an aeroscreen car.
Both cages can have a side impact protection bar and a wheel intrusion bar fitted for additional protection.
Wheel intrusion bar prevents the wheel smashing directly into the side of the cockpit in very severe impacts.
Side impact protection bar is a high level external bar that increases side impact protection.
All of these are racint mods and are not really necessary. I would go for an FIA roll bar which is a stronger version of the standard bar and be happy.
Roadsport cage: This is used (as the name suggests) in the Caterham Roadsport challenge and is suitable for use with a windscreen. This can have weather gear over the top but it does not fit as well as without a cage. I believe one of the owners club guys has modified his to fit better (head over to www.blatchat.com (owners club bulletin board for more advice).
Superlight Cage: Used in the Superlight challenge (now R400 challenge). Suitable only for use with an aeroscreen car.
Both cages can have a side impact protection bar and a wheel intrusion bar fitted for additional protection.
Wheel intrusion bar prevents the wheel smashing directly into the side of the cockpit in very severe impacts.
Side impact protection bar is a high level external bar that increases side impact protection.
All of these are racint mods and are not really necessary. I would go for an FIA roll bar which is a stronger version of the standard bar and be happy.
bigairbox said: does anyone have any photos of crashed caterhams???
cheers
I don't have any to hand, though I've seen a few. Generaly they have survived quite well, but now real way of telling what injuries the driver has sustained even if the passeneger compartment hasn't collapsed.
I definately think a 7 is the wrong choice if you are that concerned about saftey.
bigairbox said: does anyone have any photos of crashed caterhams???
cheers
How about this: [url]www.btinternet.com/~nick.woods/caterham/crashrepairs/[/url]
The pictures I've seen of the aftermath of race crashes in Sevens are actually pretty reassuring. And can almost always be repaired. It's not MY car I hasten to add...
I don't think they do crash tests on Kit Cars as they aren't always the same and it'd only give a vague idea of the safety. I also don't think they are produced in enough numbers to warrant stringent NCAP testing. Usually bought by enthusiasts who understand that a comprimise(sp.) is normally on the cards 
Graham
>> Edited by Graham.J on Monday 14th July 20:54
Graham
>> Edited by Graham.J on Monday 14th July 20:54
On the Caterham racing video 2002 Chris Cooper explains how he survived a crash unscathed in his Superlight race car. He hit a tyre barrier at 118mph and was fine.
Arnie Webb on Blatchat rolled his car over a tyre wall at 80 mph and drove it back to the pits (heavily damaged) and this was a road car.
They survive very well in accidents and are usually repairable due to the spaceframe. Usually people avoid accidents in Caterhams because they have very quick steering and amazing brakes.
Check out the Chris Rees book on sevens (I think the first edition) this has some feedback on French crash testing. As far as I know very little formal crash testing has been done as the cars are not type approved. However Caterham have been developing the car for 30 years and Lotus for a long time before that so a lot of research in the field has been done.
Arnie Webb on Blatchat rolled his car over a tyre wall at 80 mph and drove it back to the pits (heavily damaged) and this was a road car.
They survive very well in accidents and are usually repairable due to the spaceframe. Usually people avoid accidents in Caterhams because they have very quick steering and amazing brakes.
Check out the Chris Rees book on sevens (I think the first edition) this has some feedback on French crash testing. As far as I know very little formal crash testing has been done as the cars are not type approved. However Caterham have been developing the car for 30 years and Lotus for a long time before that so a lot of research in the field has been done.
Dino,
Its really a street legal race car....
On the day in question it had an FIA bar with the petty strut fitted, I had a FIA 3 layer race suit on, with gloves etc, I had a helmet on, and I was secured by a 6 point harness.
Had it caught fire I could have hit the plumbed in fire system as well....
You are far more likley in a Caterham to overcook it sideways into a tree or lamp post than get a side impact from a SUV.
To protect you in these circumstances you should consider -
1. the energy to be dissipated is generally less as the car weighs less
2. the configuration of s Seven is such that on a spin you normally have a low angle of incidence for a side impact and glance off these types of things.
3. if you are really bothered Caterham do make side intrusion protection bars for the race cars, or a full cage which incorporates similar.
The Caterham also has aluminium honeycombe in the sides to absorb energy, and the structural integrity is better than most if not all of its replicas.
Its really a street legal race car....
On the day in question it had an FIA bar with the petty strut fitted, I had a FIA 3 layer race suit on, with gloves etc, I had a helmet on, and I was secured by a 6 point harness.
Had it caught fire I could have hit the plumbed in fire system as well....
You are far more likley in a Caterham to overcook it sideways into a tree or lamp post than get a side impact from a SUV.
To protect you in these circumstances you should consider -
1. the energy to be dissipated is generally less as the car weighs less
2. the configuration of s Seven is such that on a spin you normally have a low angle of incidence for a side impact and glance off these types of things.
3. if you are really bothered Caterham do make side intrusion protection bars for the race cars, or a full cage which incorporates similar.
The Caterham also has aluminium honeycombe in the sides to absorb energy, and the structural integrity is better than most if not all of its replicas.
BigFatV8 said:
My tuppence worth...
There's more - a standard car roof does nothing more than keep the rain off. Have you ever seen a normal car which has rolled. Pancake. The roof offers no real protection, and is more likely to act as method of trapping you in the car. Think of all the dangers which come with that such as the car catching fire. Get the FIA rollbar, and you'll be far safer than most.
Not quite true - when I had my Cerbera, driving down a B road near me, I had a deer jump over the hedge, land on my roof, got it's back legs in the passenger window, slide off the roof, scratched the boot and fell off the back! It landed on the road, got up and ran off. If I had been driving a Range Rover it would have come straight through the windscreen and proabably killed me, if I had been driving a Caterham, it would have landed on mine, or my passengers head and killed them. Gues I was very lucky - oh and I'm buying a Westfield because it is safer than a bike! (or donorcycle as they are known in most Accident and Emergency departments)
David
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff