Caterham build quality
Discussion
Crossflow Kid said:
Remind me....is this the same forum where a reader was largely dismissed for raising the issue of CC delivering a car covered in road salt and kack after a several-hundred-mile delivery trip?
Certainly, I think you'll find he was largely supported for his (mate's) complaints and dismissed by a small number (inc me).Purespeed said:
Porson, yes I think your expectations are too high. You have bought a car that is put together with hand tools by human beings and not robots.
Not sure I agree 100% with this. "Sorry you Steinway Louis XV has arrived covered in scratches, this piano is put together with hand tools by human beings and not robots" - it doesn't really work.
a) The car is not being assembled as a favour, there is a healthy four figure sum involoved for the service.
b) These are cars are not cheap cars.
c) Listen to Caterham and they are desperate to shrug off the kit-car thing and bang on endlessly about how they are a 'prestige' brand.
Caterham need to be 'cheap and cheerful' or prestige. You can't charge in one ballpark and play in the other.
Edited by Matt UK on Monday 18th April 14:05
Caterham seem to be very good at putting stuff right.
Same as getting the correct parts out, after sending the wrong ones first time around. They're a helpfull bunch of folks.
But it's a pity they don't take the care to get it right first time around.
From personal experience, I can say it gets a bit tiring after a while.
When I flew over from Spain to collect a brand new factory built R300, the salesman pointed out a flaw in the carbon dash....
Why the hell didn't they change it before I came all that way to collect the car? Probably because they knew I wouldn't refuse the car after travelling all that way to collect.
I realy can't see the quality has improved since then, in fact I think the newer chassis are a mess compared to the older Arch ones.
Pity they don't spend as much time on QC as they do on marketing.
Great little car though, quality issues aside.
Same as getting the correct parts out, after sending the wrong ones first time around. They're a helpfull bunch of folks.
But it's a pity they don't take the care to get it right first time around.
From personal experience, I can say it gets a bit tiring after a while.
When I flew over from Spain to collect a brand new factory built R300, the salesman pointed out a flaw in the carbon dash....
Why the hell didn't they change it before I came all that way to collect the car? Probably because they knew I wouldn't refuse the car after travelling all that way to collect.
I realy can't see the quality has improved since then, in fact I think the newer chassis are a mess compared to the older Arch ones.
Pity they don't spend as much time on QC as they do on marketing.
Great little car though, quality issues aside.
Matt UK said:
Not sure I agree 100% with this.
"Sorry you Steinway Louis XV has arrived covered in scratches, this piano is put together with hand tools by human beings and not robots" - it doesn't really work.
a) The car is not being assembled as a favour, there is a healthy four figure sum involoved for the service.
b) These are cars are not cheap cars.
c) Listen to Caterham and they are desperate to shrug off the kit-car thing and bang on endlessly about how they are a 'prestige' brand.
Caterham need to be 'cheap and cheerful' or prestige. You can't charge in one ballpark and play in the other.
I agree with this. I bought a SV kit last year and was horribly disappointed with both the quality of what they had manufactured and their attitude when they suggested that they could only fix it if I got the car to them (pre-IVA from Scotland). For £20k+ for a very basic car I really expected more. Never again."Sorry you Steinway Louis XV has arrived covered in scratches, this piano is put together with hand tools by human beings and not robots" - it doesn't really work.
a) The car is not being assembled as a favour, there is a healthy four figure sum involoved for the service.
b) These are cars are not cheap cars.
c) Listen to Caterham and they are desperate to shrug off the kit-car thing and bang on endlessly about how they are a 'prestige' brand.
Caterham need to be 'cheap and cheerful' or prestige. You can't charge in one ballpark and play in the other.
Edited by Matt UK on Monday 18th April 14:05
It's a difficult one really because on the one hand, there's no excuse really for them not getting it right the first time, but on the other, in my experience, they're probably one of the best after sales companies I've dealt with in the car industry.
The way I see it is this - They've got a small, experienced but perhaps 'stuck in their ways' workforce at the factory. I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with this, or indeed suggesting in anyway that they don't do their job properly, but it's a common thing in British industry. We're very good at making stuff, but very bad at making it consistently and even worse at changing! The guys at the factory are undoubtably skilled and experienced, but I suspect there's a lot of 'we've always done it like that'. So on the front line, you've got a group of fairly forward thinking people who are driving the business forwards, but at the back, the workforce are unsure of change/slow to do so and hence what Caterham as a business are trying to promote (i.e. good value, high performance and good quality products) is not always matched by the product. They are aware of this though, and it seems they do there best to correct problems in after sales.
I do get the sense they are gradually starting to make a difference though. Little things have changed over the past couple of years that are small, but significant. This move to BMW diffs is undoubtably supply related, but also has a hopefully positive benefit on consistency and quality. They've changed fiberglass suppliers for wings to Tillett who now make a more consistent, higher quality product (with added features to improve assembly consistency), and generally looking at this years bunch of Academy cars, I'd say that the overall quality has improved.
Of course there are always some issues when it comes to warranty on larger items, but how many car companies do you know of that would willingly change a noisy diff or faulty gearbox? It took my parents nearly a year and 5 periods without their Saab to convince them that the gearbox was on it's way out. I know of several people who have had gearbox selectors go on their RACING CARS who have had the 'box exchanged in a matter of days with little or no questions asked. Yes it's an inconvenience, but I think they make the right noises on the whole.
I suggest to the original poster that perhaps just give Caterham a ring about the issues. OK, it's not ideal as you say, but usually they're willing to help rectify the issues. I could be proved wrong, but treat the guys with some respect and they'll generally do the same with you. Whine and winge and stamp your feat and you might find they're not so willing!
I'll add that I'm not employed in anyway way by Caterham. I do know them reasonably well through racing though, and see a lot of the interactions fellow competitors have with them, and I do perhaps have more sympathy with an OEM supplier than most as I work as an engineer for Jaguar Land Rover, but I wouldn't come on here and defend them if I didn't think they were reasonable myself!
The way I see it is this - They've got a small, experienced but perhaps 'stuck in their ways' workforce at the factory. I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with this, or indeed suggesting in anyway that they don't do their job properly, but it's a common thing in British industry. We're very good at making stuff, but very bad at making it consistently and even worse at changing! The guys at the factory are undoubtably skilled and experienced, but I suspect there's a lot of 'we've always done it like that'. So on the front line, you've got a group of fairly forward thinking people who are driving the business forwards, but at the back, the workforce are unsure of change/slow to do so and hence what Caterham as a business are trying to promote (i.e. good value, high performance and good quality products) is not always matched by the product. They are aware of this though, and it seems they do there best to correct problems in after sales.
I do get the sense they are gradually starting to make a difference though. Little things have changed over the past couple of years that are small, but significant. This move to BMW diffs is undoubtably supply related, but also has a hopefully positive benefit on consistency and quality. They've changed fiberglass suppliers for wings to Tillett who now make a more consistent, higher quality product (with added features to improve assembly consistency), and generally looking at this years bunch of Academy cars, I'd say that the overall quality has improved.
Of course there are always some issues when it comes to warranty on larger items, but how many car companies do you know of that would willingly change a noisy diff or faulty gearbox? It took my parents nearly a year and 5 periods without their Saab to convince them that the gearbox was on it's way out. I know of several people who have had gearbox selectors go on their RACING CARS who have had the 'box exchanged in a matter of days with little or no questions asked. Yes it's an inconvenience, but I think they make the right noises on the whole.
I suggest to the original poster that perhaps just give Caterham a ring about the issues. OK, it's not ideal as you say, but usually they're willing to help rectify the issues. I could be proved wrong, but treat the guys with some respect and they'll generally do the same with you. Whine and winge and stamp your feat and you might find they're not so willing!
I'll add that I'm not employed in anyway way by Caterham. I do know them reasonably well through racing though, and see a lot of the interactions fellow competitors have with them, and I do perhaps have more sympathy with an OEM supplier than most as I work as an engineer for Jaguar Land Rover, but I wouldn't come on here and defend them if I didn't think they were reasonable myself!
I find all this quite interesting reading. Apologies up front for the long post, but I have some thoughts I've harboured for a while and it's a reasonable place to get them down and see what the response is.
I'm pleased the OP is having his issues sorted out but I can't help but agree with those who are disappointed. I hasten to add that I have had no direct dealings with Caterham, so my only experience, positive and negative is via forums. So, all roll your eyes. I think most Seven owners are sensible folk, so whilst I take it all with a sizeable pinch of salt, there are very few outrageous rants and most people articulate their issues in a reasonably balanced way.
So, what's interesting about all this? Firstly, Caterham seem to be a very "human" company. That's to say people are very variable and thus so is the product. The attention to detail at 4.59 on a Friday is like as not different to that just after tea-break on a Wednesday morning. Similarly, all the people are different, so where one person found it acceptable, or possibly didn't think through the consequences of, setting a new-build off in an open trailer, another would have rung the customer and explained that they were going to be a day late as they were unwilling to deliver a car that couldn't be covered for the journey.
Similarly, I read quite a few build diaries before purchase, to get an idea of what the cars were like to work on. A common theme is of missing or incorrect parts and misleading or incorrect build manual info. Very frustrating for the builders, who in a couple of cases were spending entire days only to discover the error and have to undo all the work, then wait for the correct part to be shipped to then. Universally, the reports on the after-sales service were good. First-name terms with Caterham staff and good advice given on the phone seemed normal, plus swift part-issues resolution. So, you could say that Caterham have developed this high quality aftersales service out of necessity! They have become reactive to problems that they should be proactive about. Get the right kit out and make a better manual and the calls don't come in.
Finally, on the subject of build quality, again, it seems a human issue. If I pay 20k plus for anything, frankly, I expect it to be pretty much bob-on. I don't want to see scratched paint, poorly finished areas or items that need attention at the first service. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in a mainstream manufacturer situation, but the terms 'bespoke' and 'hand-made' generally refer to a higher standard of finish, not a requirement to accept human blunders as part and parcel of the experience. I don't expect to have to go back to Savile Row and get that third button sewn back on because Fred only used half the required thread.
So do I think Caterham are great? Yes. Could Caterham be better? Of course. They could be astronomically better. Can you imagine if they offered downloads of all past build manuals on the website so second-hand buyers had the guide if it didn't come with their car? What if they employed a Haynes type team of guys to overhaul the current build manuals and another team to re-jig the parts department's organisation system so the right bits went out with each kit? Could they offer two or three levels of delivery? The basic "We'll drive it to you. It gets a bit of the running in period done for you". Turn up with a respectable guy at the wheel to alay fears he's revved it to death and had it sideways on every roundabout. The next level, where it arrives on a covered transporter. The invite to the factory, tour about, introduce you to the builder, then present the car to you (presumably over a mug of the strongest tea you're even likely to taste, as opposed to a glass of something!).
I guess the real point of interest is to see if or how Tony Fernandes influences Caterham in the next five years. There's no doubting F1 teams strive for perfection. I wonder what could be learnt?
I'm pleased the OP is having his issues sorted out but I can't help but agree with those who are disappointed. I hasten to add that I have had no direct dealings with Caterham, so my only experience, positive and negative is via forums. So, all roll your eyes. I think most Seven owners are sensible folk, so whilst I take it all with a sizeable pinch of salt, there are very few outrageous rants and most people articulate their issues in a reasonably balanced way.
So, what's interesting about all this? Firstly, Caterham seem to be a very "human" company. That's to say people are very variable and thus so is the product. The attention to detail at 4.59 on a Friday is like as not different to that just after tea-break on a Wednesday morning. Similarly, all the people are different, so where one person found it acceptable, or possibly didn't think through the consequences of, setting a new-build off in an open trailer, another would have rung the customer and explained that they were going to be a day late as they were unwilling to deliver a car that couldn't be covered for the journey.
Similarly, I read quite a few build diaries before purchase, to get an idea of what the cars were like to work on. A common theme is of missing or incorrect parts and misleading or incorrect build manual info. Very frustrating for the builders, who in a couple of cases were spending entire days only to discover the error and have to undo all the work, then wait for the correct part to be shipped to then. Universally, the reports on the after-sales service were good. First-name terms with Caterham staff and good advice given on the phone seemed normal, plus swift part-issues resolution. So, you could say that Caterham have developed this high quality aftersales service out of necessity! They have become reactive to problems that they should be proactive about. Get the right kit out and make a better manual and the calls don't come in.
Finally, on the subject of build quality, again, it seems a human issue. If I pay 20k plus for anything, frankly, I expect it to be pretty much bob-on. I don't want to see scratched paint, poorly finished areas or items that need attention at the first service. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in a mainstream manufacturer situation, but the terms 'bespoke' and 'hand-made' generally refer to a higher standard of finish, not a requirement to accept human blunders as part and parcel of the experience. I don't expect to have to go back to Savile Row and get that third button sewn back on because Fred only used half the required thread.
So do I think Caterham are great? Yes. Could Caterham be better? Of course. They could be astronomically better. Can you imagine if they offered downloads of all past build manuals on the website so second-hand buyers had the guide if it didn't come with their car? What if they employed a Haynes type team of guys to overhaul the current build manuals and another team to re-jig the parts department's organisation system so the right bits went out with each kit? Could they offer two or three levels of delivery? The basic "We'll drive it to you. It gets a bit of the running in period done for you". Turn up with a respectable guy at the wheel to alay fears he's revved it to death and had it sideways on every roundabout. The next level, where it arrives on a covered transporter. The invite to the factory, tour about, introduce you to the builder, then present the car to you (presumably over a mug of the strongest tea you're even likely to taste, as opposed to a glass of something!).
I guess the real point of interest is to see if or how Tony Fernandes influences Caterham in the next five years. There's no doubting F1 teams strive for perfection. I wonder what could be learnt?
I am considering an R500, once I return to the UK (so expensive in the US), and if the build quality was not near perfect on day one then I am pretty sure I would wish I had bought something like an Atom (which lacks the charater and history of a Caterham). The entire point of buying a hand built car is to know that there has been hours of attention to detail and care gone into the construction.
You don't fork out 40k to have your new car scuffed and missing parts, it is completly unacceptable IMHO. Look at the competitors in this market, you hear little on bulid quality issues in Atoms. Just think of the cost saving for the business by getting the build right first time! I thought Ansar's blog post was superb and has helped addressed some of the concerns raised by many here.
You don't fork out 40k to have your new car scuffed and missing parts, it is completly unacceptable IMHO. Look at the competitors in this market, you hear little on bulid quality issues in Atoms. Just think of the cost saving for the business by getting the build right first time! I thought Ansar's blog post was superb and has helped addressed some of the concerns raised by many here.
a10eun said:
I am considering an R500, once I return to the UK (so expensive in the US), and if the build quality was not near perfect on day one then I am pretty sure I would wish I had bought something like an Atom (which lacks the charater and history of a Caterham). The entire point of buying a hand built car is to know that there has been hours of attention to detail and care gone into the construction.
You don't fork out 40k to have your new car scuffed and missing parts, it is completly unacceptable IMHO. Look at the competitors in this market, you hear little on bulid quality issues in Atoms. Just think of the cost saving for the business by getting the build right first time! I thought Ansar's blog post was superb and has helped addressed some of the concerns raised by many here.
If you want Caracter, history, and quality, then I think you'd be better to buy a Morgan. British, Hand built, beautfully hand crafted coachwork, provenence with attention to detail.You don't fork out 40k to have your new car scuffed and missing parts, it is completly unacceptable IMHO. Look at the competitors in this market, you hear little on bulid quality issues in Atoms. Just think of the cost saving for the business by getting the build right first time! I thought Ansar's blog post was superb and has helped addressed some of the concerns raised by many here.
Not chucked together from a parts bin full of farmed out, poorly powder coated, and weld spattered parts.
All IMHO and past experience you understand.
However, I don't think you can compare an Atom with a Caterham. Totaly different animal in my book. Personally I'd be bored with an Atom after a day.
Then again, I suppose I shouldn't compare a Morgan to a Caterham...another totaly different animal.
But if you're talking build quality...
It's nice to see Ansar address the issues in a blogg, but will it change anything?
Time will tell.
I took my new Caterham along to have a look around a workshop where they hand roll and weld together special aluminium bodies for Austin Seven chassis. It was a very interesting visit and their work looked superb, but the reason I'm posting is the comments he made about my car. I was being a bit picky about slight asymmetry where the bonnet fits, but this highly skilled craftsman said it was as good as the bodies they make.
He was very impressed with the Caterham build quality (and mine is a metric chassis rather than an arch one too). He also said that he knew a well respected engineer from a company that specializes in recreating exotic pre war racing cars (better not mention names). Apparently he visited them when there was a Caterham in their workshop, and all they kept saying was how well designed it was and how well built they are.
Having built a Caterham, I have to say that there were no design flaws that I felt could be easily improved. On a previous kit car build, I kept having to change the design of minor parts, because it just wouldn't have lasted with the suggested build.
I think it pays to remember that a Caterham was designed as a race car to be driven quickly with the bear minimum of creature comforts. There will always be rattles, and it would ruin the driving experience if they were developed to be free from them.
He was very impressed with the Caterham build quality (and mine is a metric chassis rather than an arch one too). He also said that he knew a well respected engineer from a company that specializes in recreating exotic pre war racing cars (better not mention names). Apparently he visited them when there was a Caterham in their workshop, and all they kept saying was how well designed it was and how well built they are.
Having built a Caterham, I have to say that there were no design flaws that I felt could be easily improved. On a previous kit car build, I kept having to change the design of minor parts, because it just wouldn't have lasted with the suggested build.
I think it pays to remember that a Caterham was designed as a race car to be driven quickly with the bear minimum of creature comforts. There will always be rattles, and it would ruin the driving experience if they were developed to be free from them.
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff