Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
Discussion
Want a kit car that looks like a 7 - there are too many to list out there - so choose whatever suits you.
Want a production 7 that can be purchased in component form and has the heritage that all the others copy - go get the Caterham.
And, just by the bye, if you have really shallow pockets, just purchase the Caterham body/chassis and source the rest of the parts yourself (just as you may do when building a 'kit').
If you build one this way you'll get the 'real' thing at a reasonable cost and will probably never lose a penny on it if you ever wanted to sell it.
Last Caterham I built (1988) I just purchased the parts I wanted from Caterham as shown in the manual and got the rest from other sources. Car built in 4 days and still going strong.
Want a production 7 that can be purchased in component form and has the heritage that all the others copy - go get the Caterham.
And, just by the bye, if you have really shallow pockets, just purchase the Caterham body/chassis and source the rest of the parts yourself (just as you may do when building a 'kit').
If you build one this way you'll get the 'real' thing at a reasonable cost and will probably never lose a penny on it if you ever wanted to sell it.
Last Caterham I built (1988) I just purchased the parts I wanted from Caterham as shown in the manual and got the rest from other sources. Car built in 4 days and still going strong.
chris_speed said:
I'd say having a £12k non depreciating asset in the garage to take out once in a while, rather than £12k sat in the bank earning next to nowt in interest is much preferable... but I've long been a delusional car nut!
That was exactly my philosophy on getting one. It's the [first, small] part of a house deposit as far as I'm concerned, but I might as well have fun storing the money in the garage rather than storing it in the bank. Because Caterhams are so easy to work on it's entirely possible to do just about anything yourself even with next to no experience, which means my labour costs have totalled zero so far.
chris_speed said:
I'd say having a £12k non depreciating asset in the garage to take out once in a while, rather than £12k sat in the bank earning next to nowt in interest is much preferable... but I've long been a delusional car nut!
But how does having an equally capable £5K non-depreciating asset in the garage to take out once in a while and blowing £7K on booze and women (or whatever else floats your boat) sound?
I applied the same persuasive logic when I bought my 1992 Caterham HPC last year.
"We've got money in the bank doing very little, let me use a small portion of it to buy a non-depreciating asset - it'll be fun and will cost peanuts"
That was fine until last month when the original ECU died. I've just forked out £800 on a new 3D-mappable MBE ecu/loom/all the rest of the bits, plus £150 on various electrical bits replaced during the fault-finding, plus the labour to fit it...
Does it matter? The only thing that matters is I've not been able to drive it for a month!
Sam_68 said:
chris_speed said:
I'd say having a £12k non depreciating asset in the garage to take out once in a while, rather than £12k sat in the bank earning next to nowt in interest is much preferable... but I've long been a delusional car nut!
But how does having an equally capable £5K non-depreciating asset in the garage to take out once in a while and blowing £7K on booze and women (or whatever else floats your boat) sound?The other thing was resale. There's a huge number of people looking for "a Caterham" as well as the wider Seven-a-like market and they all conform to fairly standard specifications so you don't need quite such a specialised buyer to sell on a Caterham and they're very easy to price.
Mostly I bought a Caterham because I'm lazy though. I like the fact that one phonecall can source anything from a wheelnut to a whole new chassis and the fact I have specialist companies like the Seven Workshop and Caterham itself to fall back on. I've owned a Sylva made of bits of 1980s Vauxhall before and sourcing parts or finding anyone who knew anything about the oily bits for advice was a nightmare. Less of a concern with a Westfield admittedly, but the Caterham is still by far the most productionised kit on the market I'd say.
I'd recommend finding a copy of the Mark Hales article "Attack of the Clones" from Circuit Driver a while ago, where he tries a Caterham, Westfield and many other 7-a-likes. He's a 7 cynic, so was the ideal man for the job.
His conclusion in the article (which echoes that of other journalists) was that the Caterham drove the best, with the Westfield a firm second (I can't remember the order of the others I'm afraid). The Caterham won points for its friendly handling (it was the only car he didn't spin that day), performance (it had the least power of any car - 160bhp vs 200bhp in the Westfield - but recorded the best lap time), comfort and fit and finish. There are people on here though (Sam_68 for one I think), who have developed their own Westfields for specific tasks, such as track driving, and say they handle better than a factory fresh Caterham, which I can well believe. Personally though, if I was buying a car out of the box for road and track use, I'd go for a Caterham every time (that's just my opinion, which I believe I'm entitled to, especialyl seeing as it's not born out of snobbery or vanity). With a Caterham you also get membership to one of the best and friendliest car clubs out there. Cherished road cars cost a lot, but ex racing cars are often great value for money.
To counter what I've said above, there's a lot of cynicism around, just like many "car enthusiasts" will tell you BMWs are rubbish, whereas in fact they only say that because they're expensive and they don't like the image (snobbery at its purest), when the same person will love a Merc that quantifiably is an extremely similar car in engineering terms. Equally, many people hate Caterhams because they're expensive and they don't like to feel like a snob, and just as many people hate Westfields purely because they copied Caterham and ended up in court over it. My advice would be to try and avoid such silliness, get a drive or ride in a Westfield and a Caterham, read up in back issues of magazines, read threads like this, and then make your own mind up, but for your own enjoyment try not to be a snob (in either direction!).
His conclusion in the article (which echoes that of other journalists) was that the Caterham drove the best, with the Westfield a firm second (I can't remember the order of the others I'm afraid). The Caterham won points for its friendly handling (it was the only car he didn't spin that day), performance (it had the least power of any car - 160bhp vs 200bhp in the Westfield - but recorded the best lap time), comfort and fit and finish. There are people on here though (Sam_68 for one I think), who have developed their own Westfields for specific tasks, such as track driving, and say they handle better than a factory fresh Caterham, which I can well believe. Personally though, if I was buying a car out of the box for road and track use, I'd go for a Caterham every time (that's just my opinion, which I believe I'm entitled to, especialyl seeing as it's not born out of snobbery or vanity). With a Caterham you also get membership to one of the best and friendliest car clubs out there. Cherished road cars cost a lot, but ex racing cars are often great value for money.
To counter what I've said above, there's a lot of cynicism around, just like many "car enthusiasts" will tell you BMWs are rubbish, whereas in fact they only say that because they're expensive and they don't like the image (snobbery at its purest), when the same person will love a Merc that quantifiably is an extremely similar car in engineering terms. Equally, many people hate Caterhams because they're expensive and they don't like to feel like a snob, and just as many people hate Westfields purely because they copied Caterham and ended up in court over it. My advice would be to try and avoid such silliness, get a drive or ride in a Westfield and a Caterham, read up in back issues of magazines, read threads like this, and then make your own mind up, but for your own enjoyment try not to be a snob (in either direction!).
RobM77 said:
many people hate Caterhams because they're expensive and they don't like to feel like a snob
I agree that this issue seems to exist but I wonder at the justification. Ownership of, say, an MX-5 wouldn't seem to attract that sort of problem even though its £17k - £23k new price range covers quite a chunk of the Caterham range (and indeed starts above the starting price for a Caterham). So what is the source of the problem?Mostly I'd suggest that they haven't got the cash!
I've done over 50 track days, mostly in Caterhams, and I've always found the Caterham Westie thing to be no problem at all when you're out there doing it! Both great cars and I've been thrashed by some Westies in my time - (The nut behind the wheel is the most important component!)
Just internet armchair 'issues' and too many beers make for silly comparisons and arguments.
99% of the time we are in the same corner: Proper cars you feel like you've driven.
I've done over 50 track days, mostly in Caterhams, and I've always found the Caterham Westie thing to be no problem at all when you're out there doing it! Both great cars and I've been thrashed by some Westies in my time - (The nut behind the wheel is the most important component!)
Just internet armchair 'issues' and too many beers make for silly comparisons and arguments.
99% of the time we are in the same corner: Proper cars you feel like you've driven.
Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 23 September 14:45
Colin Mill said:
RobM77 said:
many people hate Caterhams because they're expensive and they don't like to feel like a snob
I agree that this issue seems to exist but I wonder at the justification. Ownership of, say, an MX-5 wouldn't seem to attract that sort of problem even though its £17k - £23k new price range covers quite a chunk of the Caterham range (and indeed starts above the starting price for a Caterham). So what is the source of the problem?Firstly, the existence of something cheaper. If you think about it, there is no £9k MX5, which is why a £20k MX5 doesn't attract negative criticism, because it's the cheapest car in its sector, and at worst is comparably priced against the competition (i.e. mk3 MR2 when it existed), never "over-priced" in people#s minds. Most people think purely in terms of styling, so for them it actually works the other way too - a £40k Boxster attracts vitriol because of the existence of an MX5 for half the price.
Secondly, it's the whole legitimacy of the Westfield, and that is where hatred (if that's not too harsh a term) on both sides starts. People who don't like Westfields often regret the fact that Graham Nearne bought the rights to the 7 in good faith in 1973, and was then promptly undercut by someone making a replica, and even having the cheek to stick a 7 badge on the front. Oppositely, people who don't like Caterhams often claim that because Westfield can make a "7" for half the cost, the Caterham is snobby rubbish.
Such a situation could only really come about in England, where we've always had a class wars going on. Where else does the BMW 3 series attract such hatred (I hear the term "BMW driver" several times a day wherever I am), but a similarly priced and equally as comon Mondeo or Passat doesn't? I find it too with me as a person - I've worked with and lived with Northeners and Cockneys who've both been noticeably very wary of me purely because of my southern accent. On the two occasions that I'm thinking of, they've actually said to my face "you know mate, I thought you were a posh snob when I first met you but now I know you I realise you're not". I rather like hearing that, but it's interesting that it happens! It's the same with Caterhams and Westfields, which is why I would urge people to have an open mind and drive them both, because then they might realise that the Westfield is not the heap of s
t they thought it was, or perhaps that the Caterham is not the over-priced snob they thought it was!GetCarter said:
Mostly I'd suggest that they haven't got the cash!
Well, not me, for one - check my profile if you believe that to be the case - but I do take a pragmatic view about what represents value for money and don't throw cash away for the sake of it. For the same reason, I drive a Skoda company car that's worth a fraction of the budget allowance my company gives me, for the simple reason that I see no value in paying extra tax on an Audi badge.
Obviously there are plenty of people out there who do attach a value to having the right badge or label, even on disposable items like clothes or electronics, never mind 'assets' like cars.
Good luck to them - it's their money.
RobM77 said:
...I would urge people to have an open mind and drive them both, because then they might realise that the Westfield is not the heap of st they thought it was, or perhaps that the Caterham is not the over-priced snob they thought it was!
I've not merely driven both (indeed several examples of both), I've owned both, and I'm afraid I have to say that the Caterham is overpriced if you look dispassionately at what you get for your cash.t they thought it was, or perhaps that the Caterham is not the over-priced snob they thought it was!Part of this is down to Caterham's policy of outsourcing production of all components (so you're having to pay not merely a profit margin for Caterham themselves, but for their suppliers - though several other kit-car companies use the same approach and still manage to price more competitively than Caterham), and partly it's down to the simple fact that they feel they can charge a premium because of their name, and because a sufficient number of people are daft enough to fall for the 'authentic heritage' tripe.
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
Mostly I'd suggest that they haven't got the cash!
Well, not me, for one - check my profile if you believe that to be the case - but I do take a pragmatic view about what represents value for money and don't throw cash away for the sake of it. For the same reason, I drive a Skoda company car that's worth less than 2/3rds of the budget allowance my company gives me, for the simple reason that I see no value in paying extra tax on an Audi badge.
Obviously there are plenty of people out there who do attach a value to having the right badge or label, even on disposable items like clothes or electronics, never mind 'assets' like cars.
Good luck to them - it's their money.
RobM77 said:
...I would urge people to have an open mind and drive them both, because then they might realise that the Westfield is not the heap of st they thought it was, or perhaps that the Caterham is not the over-priced snob they thought it was!
I've not merely driven both (indeed several examples of both), I've owned both, and I'm afraid I have to say that the Caterham is overpriced if you look dispassionately at what you get for your cash.t they thought it was, or perhaps that the Caterham is not the over-priced snob they thought it was!Part of this is down to Caterham's policy of outsourcing production of all components (so you're having to pay not merely a profit margin for Caterham themselves, but for their suppliers - though several other kit-car companies use the same approach and still manage to price more competitively than Caterham), and partly it's down to the simple fact that they feel they can charge a premium because of their name, and because a sufficient number of people are daft enough to fall for the 'authentic heritage' tripe.
I buy and drive cars because they are good, not because they are value for money or because of a badge.
Still. Each to their own.
GetCarter said:
I buy and drive cars because they are good, not because they are value for money or because of a badge.
So do I. That's why I no longer drive a Caterham: there are better, more interesting cars out there.
I've done Caterham. They're OK, but I wouldn't get obsessive about them.
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