Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
I buy and drive cars because they are good, not because they are value for money or because of a badge.
So do I. That's why I no longer drive a Caterham: there are better, more interesting cars out there.
I've done Caterham. They're OK, but I wouldn't get obsessive about them.
I don't consider myself obsessive. I've had 911's Astons, Minis, Caterhams, RS6's. Elises, BMs, etc
...so, tell me what is more interesting than an R500, living in the North West Highlands of Scotland? I have an open mind!
GetCarter said:
...so, tell me what is more interesting than an R500
Ooooh, lots of things. I can't honestly think of much that isn't more interesting than an R500; as far as the genre goes, it's utterly conventional to the point of tedium. I can't think of a single interesting or technically innovative thing about it.
But if you want some alternative ideas:
...The Westfield FW400 offers pretty much identical performance, better steering feel and is much more technically interesting. You'd struggle to find one, though.
...The Westfield Eleven has much purer, better handling (and, incidentally, is much closer in feel to the original Lotus Seven than anything Caterham has built).
....LCC Rocket
... Dax Rush with CC&R suspension and a turbo bike engine
... Lotus Elise/Exige; technically much more interesting, better steering feel.
...Lotus Elan; better gearchange, better handling, better steering feel.
...Caparo, if you like really mental performance
The list would go on and on.
Perhaps we should start a Wiki on 'what's more intersting than a Caterham'?
GetCarter said:
"I can't honestly think of much that isn't more interesting than an R500"
Well, perhaps you would care to enlighten me. Bearing in mind that I've extensive experience of Seven type cars, sports cars, and single seaters, could you point me in the direction of some features that I should find interesting about the R500?
Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 23 September 19:21
It won't work. Someone needs to start a thread about roadgoing BECs on the Kit Car forum to lure him away 
He is almost as rabid in his dismissal of anyone else's opinion on them as he is of anyone who might like a Caterham.
Sam_69 - did Simon Nearn nail your Mrs or something ? There must be a reason for all this angst.
He is almost as rabid in his dismissal of anyone else's opinion on them as he is of anyone who might like a Caterham.
Sam_69 - did Simon Nearn nail your Mrs or something ? There must be a reason for all this angst.
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
If it helps you... Caterhams are not the be all and end all.
Yes, I know that.I'm still waiting for you to answer my question, though.
Well it's a long story. Starting in May 1957 - and I bet you don't want the long version do you!
Short version, I've been in twin engined Westies, Atoms, Sylvas, LOADS of track orientated kit cars, single seaters, 911's, Fezzas, Lambos...you name it, on almost every track in the UK over the past 15 years, and by far the most enjoyable car to sit in and drive has been the R500. NOT the quickest, NOT the fastest... but the most fun. The only car I've ever driven that becomes part of you.
Simple question - simple answer.
GetCarter said:
The only car I've ever driven that becomes part of you.
Simple question - simple answer.
Nope. Does not compute.Simple question - simple answer.
I've driven lots of cars that tick that box as well as or better than a Caterham. Hell, an MX5 can do that... so can a Mini.
For road use, the Elan is the car that defines the whole 'jinba ittai' best for me, personally, though the Westfield Eleven is surprisingly good - you should try either if you haven't already. Both still have their flaws, mind, but they're better than the Caterham in that regard.
The modern Caterhams (though exceptionally good compared to most 'ordinary' cars) are less than perfect in their steering weight/feel and handling progression to qualify for top honours.
You've obviously convinced yourself otherwise though, so I'm glad you're happy together.
I feel this is going nowhere. My last attempt:
I've driven a Mini Cooper S round a circuit and it was great fun... but hello, it took most of Tuesday.
Just tell me what R500 do you (did you) drive, what *EXACT* spec and where do/did you drive it? (So at least I'll know where you are coming from!)
Maybe I've got it all wrong and you are right!
ETA... next you'll be telling me the Foss Way is a good driving road.
(Don't even try - I lived there for 10 years and know JUST how bad it is).
I've driven a Mini Cooper S round a circuit and it was great fun... but hello, it took most of Tuesday.
Just tell me what R500 do you (did you) drive, what *EXACT* spec and where do/did you drive it? (So at least I'll know where you are coming from!)
Maybe I've got it all wrong and you are right!
ETA... next you'll be telling me the Foss Way is a good driving road.
(Don't even try - I lived there for 10 years and know JUST how bad it is).Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 23 September 20:17
I feel this is going nowhere. My last attempt:
I've driven a Mini Cooper S round a circuit and it was great fun... but hello, it took most of Tuesday.
Just tell me what R500 do you (did you) drive, what *EXACT* spec and where do/did you drive it? (So at least I'll know where you are coming from!)
Maybe I've got it all wrong and you are right!
I've driven a Mini Cooper S round a circuit and it was great fun... but hello, it took most of Tuesday.
Just tell me what R500 do you (did you) drive, what *EXACT* spec and where do/did you drive it? (So at least I'll know where you are coming from!)
Maybe I've got it all wrong and you are right!
Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 23 September 20:18
GetCarter said:
by far the most enjoyable car to sit in and drive has been the R500. NOT the quickest, NOT the fastest... but the most fun.
GetCarter said:
I've driven a Mini Cooper S round a circuit and it was great fun... but hello, it took most of Tuesday.
Make your mind up. Is it a performance thing, or not?I've driven Caterham R's on track (very good, for a road car, but obviously a bit limp compared to a wings-and-slicks single seater) and on the road around the Cotswold edge, where I live (think lots of typical speed hillclimb sections, joined up by country lanes, if you don't know the area - not as open and flowing as a lot of the Highlands roads, but more 'technical' and challenging, I find); I found the Caterham to be a bit heavy handed and lacking in delicacy, precision and feedback in this environment, I'm afraid - a bit like stream fishing for trout with a beachcaster.
Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 23 September 20:18
So first up... you've not driven an R500.
I'm afraid 'R's' are not R500's
Secondly, I just moved from the Cotswolds, where I lived for 10 yeas and owned (guess what) an R500.
In the nicest possible way I'd like to suggest that you try driving a car before you comment on it.
Good luck. Watch out for those dips on the Foss Way!
I'm afraid 'R's' are not R500's
Secondly, I just moved from the Cotswolds, where I lived for 10 yeas and owned (guess what) an R500.
In the nicest possible way I'd like to suggest that you try driving a car before you comment on it.
Good luck. Watch out for those dips on the Foss Way!
GetCarter said:
So first up... you've not driven an R500.
I'm afraid 'R's' are not R500's
Yes. I have. Sorry, I'll type it in full next time.I'm afraid 'R's' are not R500's
I've driven SLR's too (Sorry that's the Caterham Seven Superlight R, for the full avoidance of doubt and confusion), and I must admit I prefer them, for road use.
GetCarter said:
Good luck. Watch out for those dips on the Foss Way!
Now the Fosse Way is better R500 territory, I must admit (if you manage to get anything like a clear run at it...), though personally I don't drive Roman roads for fun. I don't know if you noticed, but they tend to be a wee bit deficient in the bends department.Firstly, I think we need to establish that Caterhams can vary enormously due to set up. Lots of people fiddly with their sevens and lose that lovely delicate feeling that they [should] have.
Secondly, in response to Sam_68's comments above, I own an Elise, have done for years, and it's kept with perfect geo and in standard trim, and an independent specialist once said it was the best they'd driven (they got a lot in that have been messed about with for track use). It's a fantastic car, and I rate it's steering feel and feedback higher than a Caterham, as well as it's ride over the bumps (which with fully independent suspension is in a different league to a Caterham), in fact it's the best road car I've ever driven. I also race a slicks and wings single seater, in fact I raced two different ones last year, and yes, they make any Caterham (even my old Roadsport A) feel slow and ponderous, the CofG is lower, everything's more immediate, more responsive etc. Comparing a single seater to a Caterham is like comparing a Caterham to a BMW Z4. However, there really is nothing out there like a Caterham - they do a very unique thing (and I mean unique in the true sense of the word), and for that I love them to bits. They have this ability to be very twitchy and sensitive whilst also being extremely friendly on the limit. I have also never driven a road car that feels so much an extension of me when I drive it, so in that I understand the comment above with respect to that. Sure, the Elise is intimate and small, but it's still nowhere near that feeling of driving a Caterham where you're at one with the whole car, like a well setup kart or single seater. They also have impeccable road manners. For a combination of talents, I don't think you can beat a good Caterham. That said, we're all different; that's just my opinion.
Secondly, in response to Sam_68's comments above, I own an Elise, have done for years, and it's kept with perfect geo and in standard trim, and an independent specialist once said it was the best they'd driven (they got a lot in that have been messed about with for track use). It's a fantastic car, and I rate it's steering feel and feedback higher than a Caterham, as well as it's ride over the bumps (which with fully independent suspension is in a different league to a Caterham), in fact it's the best road car I've ever driven. I also race a slicks and wings single seater, in fact I raced two different ones last year, and yes, they make any Caterham (even my old Roadsport A) feel slow and ponderous, the CofG is lower, everything's more immediate, more responsive etc. Comparing a single seater to a Caterham is like comparing a Caterham to a BMW Z4. However, there really is nothing out there like a Caterham - they do a very unique thing (and I mean unique in the true sense of the word), and for that I love them to bits. They have this ability to be very twitchy and sensitive whilst also being extremely friendly on the limit. I have also never driven a road car that feels so much an extension of me when I drive it, so in that I understand the comment above with respect to that. Sure, the Elise is intimate and small, but it's still nowhere near that feeling of driving a Caterham where you're at one with the whole car, like a well setup kart or single seater. They also have impeccable road manners. For a combination of talents, I don't think you can beat a good Caterham. That said, we're all different; that's just my opinion.
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