Trackday tyre wear
Discussion
So I did my first trackday in the Caterham on Saturday. Having previously been tracking my Megane 250, I was very impressed how little fuel the Caterham used in comparison, but also a little surprised of how much tyre wear I had.
Llandow is quite an abrasive surface anyway, and it was dry all day, so I expected a fair bit of wear. The rear wheels seem pretty good. Nice even wear over them (even through they were pretty new). My fronts however I have worm less well! I don't know how old they are, but thanks to the camber on the front they've both worn down to the markers on the inner edges, but are fine across the rest of the tyre.
Is this pretty normal or were my pressures too high? (I was running 17psi). The wheels are the 15" superlights with CR500 tyres.
Thoughts at the moment are to move to the back to try and even out the wear so I get more use out of them.
Anyone got any suggestions? At this rate I'll be spending more on my tyres than I did on the Megane!
EDIT: Just to add, I don't really fancy having the camber adjusted as the handling was fantastic, and I loved every minute of it
If I just have to replace tyres more often then that's what will have to happen
Llandow is quite an abrasive surface anyway, and it was dry all day, so I expected a fair bit of wear. The rear wheels seem pretty good. Nice even wear over them (even through they were pretty new). My fronts however I have worm less well! I don't know how old they are, but thanks to the camber on the front they've both worn down to the markers on the inner edges, but are fine across the rest of the tyre.
Is this pretty normal or were my pressures too high? (I was running 17psi). The wheels are the 15" superlights with CR500 tyres.
Thoughts at the moment are to move to the back to try and even out the wear so I get more use out of them.
Anyone got any suggestions? At this rate I'll be spending more on my tyres than I did on the Megane!
EDIT: Just to add, I don't really fancy having the camber adjusted as the handling was fantastic, and I loved every minute of it
If I just have to replace tyres more often then that's what will have to happen Edited by framerateuk on Thursday 4th April 10:51
Shaun_E said:
Llandow is unique in it's ability to trash your tyres as it is very abrasive. As it runs clockwise, it's the front left that takes the brunt of it. You could run a bit less front camber with CR500s which might help reduce the unevenness of the wear.
Yeah you're right about the front left, the front right tyre was almost cold after a 20 minute session.I think the solution to the problem is to go to Llandow less often and do trackdays elsewhere that don't ruin the tyres.
Don't know the track so can't comment on how abrasive it is but Caterhams can be hard on front tyres. Excessive front tyre wear suggests it is either set up to understeer, or you have a driving style that encourages understeer. I think the more you get it on the track, the more confident you'll become with the throttle and rear wheel drive, the better balanced it'll be, and less front wheel tyre wear you'll experience.
Very possible too. I'm used to a front wheel drive car so getting used to rear wheel drive is going to be a bit of a learning process. I was really enjoying myself by the end of the day though, throwing the car into corners and getting the back to slide a bit in the 2nd gear bends.
Trying to convince myself to shift to 13" wheels. I can't imagine this would have much effect on tyre wear though, but are the 13's easier to get? Caterham seem to be constantly out of stock of the 15's. Any negatives in going for 13's for road use?
The 15's have a 7" rim on 195 width tyres, would the 13" with a 6" (175) wide front and 8" (205) back be a bit too much for a 140bhp Sigma?
Trying to convince myself to shift to 13" wheels. I can't imagine this would have much effect on tyre wear though, but are the 13's easier to get? Caterham seem to be constantly out of stock of the 15's. Any negatives in going for 13's for road use?
The 15's have a 7" rim on 195 width tyres, would the 13" with a 6" (175) wide front and 8" (205) back be a bit too much for a 140bhp Sigma?
framerateuk said:
Trying to convince myself to shift to 13" wheels. I can't imagine this would have much effect on tyre wear though, but are the 13's easier to get? Caterham seem to be constantly out of stock of the 15's. Any negatives in going for 13's for road use?
The 15's have a 7" rim on 195 width tyres, would the 13" with a 6" (175) wide front and 8" (205) back be a bit too much for a 140bhp Sigma?
If you go for 13 inch wheels then you'll loose the 'sharpness' of the 15 inch with the low profile. But the handling at the limit will be more predictable which gives more confidence. Add to this the reduced (unsprung) weight and it'll be noticably quicker through the corners.The 15's have a 7" rim on 195 width tyres, would the 13" with a 6" (175) wide front and 8" (205) back be a bit too much for a 140bhp Sigma?
At 140bhp you may be a little over-tyred with the 205 (and possibly with the 195 you are running now) - why not go for 6" and the 175 all round?
Now that's an interesting idea, I didn't consider going for a thinner tyre, but as far as I'm aware the Supersport comes with 175 width CR500 and is practically the same spec as mine. I don't really want to loose outright grip mind, I loved the cornering grip on the 15's. On the few times it snapped on low speed corners there wasn't any warning though, it just went!
I could probably keep the 15" wheels and tyres for touring then.
I could probably keep the 15" wheels and tyres for touring then.
Theoretically, the tyre size does not change grip as Amontons 2nd law states that friction force remains the same. The tyre size is really about matching width to the amount of energy being transferred to the ground, i.e. narrower tyres will run hotter.
Before I get shot down in flames, there are many other factors but the principle that a wider tyre will provide more grip is not necessarily the case unless you have the power to keep them warm.
Before I get shot down in flames, there are many other factors but the principle that a wider tyre will provide more grip is not necessarily the case unless you have the power to keep them warm.
ewenm said:
I use 15" for road and 13" for track. You can even get a rack made up that clamps to the roll bar to carry the 13s to the track if you don't trailer the car there.
I was wondering about the legality of such things, I've seen pictures and I can't imagine a traffic officer wouldn't pull someone with one!
DCL said:
Theoretically, the tyre size does not change grip as Amontons 2nd law states that friction force remains the same. The tyre size is really about matching width to the amount of energy being transferred to the ground, i.e. narrower tyres will run hotter.
Before I get shot down in flames, there are many other factors but the principle that a wider tyre will provide more grip is not necessarily the case unless you have the power to keep them warm.
Shows how much I remember form A-Level physics....Before I get shot down in flames, there are many other factors but the principle that a wider tyre will provide more grip is not necessarily the case unless you have the power to keep them warm.
I certainly didn't have cold rear tyres when I was done with the last trackday. I guess my only way of knowing would be to try it and see what happens.
For the time being though I'm quite tempted to put them on the back, I can't imagine the extremes on the inside edge of the rear tyres is going to going to have a huge effect on handling. It'll only be for track use anyway since I'll need some new tyres before we go touring in the summer.
Some people commenting on the pro''s and cons of 13" v 15" really should try driving a 7 fast on the limit!
What a load of complete B.............s
The 13" is the way to go on road and track.
Just have a look at all the Speed, Hill and Race series times/records and try telling me any different.
There is nothing wrong with a 15" if thats what you want and you can possibly argue that they look better?
However due to the shorter stiffer side wall they are far more skittish and breakaway earlier.
Llandow will always kill the front left.
What a load of complete B.............s
The 13" is the way to go on road and track.
Just have a look at all the Speed, Hill and Race series times/records and try telling me any different.
There is nothing wrong with a 15" if thats what you want and you can possibly argue that they look better?
However due to the shorter stiffer side wall they are far more skittish and breakaway earlier.
Llandow will always kill the front left.
13 inch wheels all the way. On the track with a R300 I used to run the same size tyres all around, you really don't need 205's on the rear. Get yourself a spare set of wheels and get some second hand slicks fitted, then run your CR500 in the wet (or go the whole hog and get a set of second hand wets as well), and run the slicks in the dry.
Airfields are hard on tyres, proper tracks don't have such abrasive surfaces. If you don't have a trailer though, carrying extra wheels becomes difficult. I only used to pay £25 for a tyre from the Formula Renault series, they run the correct size on their fronts, and will sell them with enough meat still on them for track days
Airfields are hard on tyres, proper tracks don't have such abrasive surfaces. If you don't have a trailer though, carrying extra wheels becomes difficult. I only used to pay £25 for a tyre from the Formula Renault series, they run the correct size on their fronts, and will sell them with enough meat still on them for track days
Transport is the main problem with a spare set of wheels really. I'm not overly keen on the idea of carrying tyres on the back of the Caterham, and at the moment we don't have a car capable of towing (if only the Megane didn't have a central exhaust...).
I think the best option would be to avoid airfield days and try to stick to real tracks. We've got Anglesea booked for June and I'm going to see if we can fit in a day in Pembrey this month - though it looks like I might need some new CR500's before though.
Thanks for the advice though guys, definitely going to look into a set of 13" wheels, and the thinner wheels all round sound like they'd do the job nicely!
I think the best option would be to avoid airfield days and try to stick to real tracks. We've got Anglesea booked for June and I'm going to see if we can fit in a day in Pembrey this month - though it looks like I might need some new CR500's before though.
Thanks for the advice though guys, definitely going to look into a set of 13" wheels, and the thinner wheels all round sound like they'd do the job nicely!
13"s will give a better ride on the road as well.
Low profile tyres on such a light car are totally unnecessary.
You can still get bigger brakes inside a 13" rim so there's no argument there for bigger brakes not fitting. Caterhams big brake kit will fit no problem.
Buy yourself an infa red heat gun/thermometer. Check temps of edges and center of the tyre. Adjust pressure/toe untill you get an even reading accross the tyre.
Low profile tyres on such a light car are totally unnecessary.
You can still get bigger brakes inside a 13" rim so there's no argument there for bigger brakes not fitting. Caterhams big brake kit will fit no problem.
Buy yourself an infa red heat gun/thermometer. Check temps of edges and center of the tyre. Adjust pressure/toe untill you get an even reading accross the tyre.
Just another quick question guys!
I'm considering a set of AO-48's to go with some 13" wheels (the standard 6" Caterham ones).
http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_prod...
My questions. Would you suggest the Caterham wheels or the similar Pro Race 1.2's instead (both seem to be a similar price).
I'm planning on keeping my CR500's for road use and wet trackdays while having a dedicated set for dry days.
Like I said, I'm considering the AO-48's, but I'm a bit lost as to which options to go for.
They offer a 175 and 185 width, and a compound option of medium or soft. I'd be looking at a 60 profile either way as it would be a closer match to my 15's so I'd not need to adjust the suspension height.
Given that I'm using a 195 right now, stepping down to a 185's all round would seem sensible - unless you think I should go straight for the 175's?
I was also looking at the Avon ZZR too, which are only available as a 185, but seem to be a bit more expensive.
I'm considering a set of AO-48's to go with some 13" wheels (the standard 6" Caterham ones).
http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/product.php?id_prod...
My questions. Would you suggest the Caterham wheels or the similar Pro Race 1.2's instead (both seem to be a similar price).
I'm planning on keeping my CR500's for road use and wet trackdays while having a dedicated set for dry days.
Like I said, I'm considering the AO-48's, but I'm a bit lost as to which options to go for.
They offer a 175 and 185 width, and a compound option of medium or soft. I'd be looking at a 60 profile either way as it would be a closer match to my 15's so I'd not need to adjust the suspension height.
Given that I'm using a 195 right now, stepping down to a 185's all round would seem sensible - unless you think I should go straight for the 175's?
I was also looking at the Avon ZZR too, which are only available as a 185, but seem to be a bit more expensive.
The Grads club use Yokohama A048 185/60/13 'medium' on 'Sigmax' race cars which are simular spec to yours. No complaints as such, In fact I was chatting to a guy who used to race on CR500s and was trying A048s for the first time, he said that he could feel that the Yokohamas were heavier than the Avons but then they're quite a bit cheaper. Certainly performance and longevity aren't a problem on a Caterham.
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