GT5 Production Cars Championship - Season 4
Discussion
3rd in the championship! Woohoo! Both seasons objectives reached! Didn't think I was going to do it, so much more competition this season and I was having to work so much harder just to keep where I was.
OK I know Viper would have had me if he'd have been able to attend all ten events but 3rd in the championship was the "aim high" objective, a 2nd place finish was the one that I thought would be the more realistically attainable one, but I didn't reckon on McSam, Adam and Fuel when I set them
OK I know Viper would have had me if he'd have been able to attend all ten events but 3rd in the championship was the "aim high" objective, a 2nd place finish was the one that I thought would be the more realistically attainable one, but I didn't reckon on McSam, Adam and Fuel when I set them
Uh, Colin? I understand Carmo didn't pit in race two, so that would be my win. In fact I should have led from lights to flag, only passed by Carmo when he forgot to come in.
Was a mixed bag for me last night, I was very much enjoying watching Fuel and F1 - both drove very cleanly and very quickly, I was impressed, I was putting in extremely consistent laps and the gap was closing at a constant rate so they must have been too! Annoyed that I made a tiny mistake on an early lap to drop out of slipstream, but I was steadily closing when Virgin Media decided I wasn't allowed to get involved in the battle. Damn shame, again.
Race two.. Well I never expected to get to use the Evora without ballast, but my predictions were correct it was untouchably fast, pulling out a lead of a second a lap without much trouble. I only made one tiny error all race though, despite driving near-qualifying pace, so I was pleased with myself for keeping it neat and rounding off the season nicely 
Was a mixed bag for me last night, I was very much enjoying watching Fuel and F1 - both drove very cleanly and very quickly, I was impressed, I was putting in extremely consistent laps and the gap was closing at a constant rate so they must have been too! Annoyed that I made a tiny mistake on an early lap to drop out of slipstream, but I was steadily closing when Virgin Media decided I wasn't allowed to get involved in the battle. Damn shame, again.
Race two.. Well I never expected to get to use the Evora without ballast, but my predictions were correct
it was untouchably fast, pulling out a lead of a second a lap without much trouble. I only made one tiny error all race though, despite driving near-qualifying pace, so I was pleased with myself for keeping it neat and rounding off the season nicely If I remember correctly, there should be a pitstop time penalty added in the event of not pitting (identical to my one at Autumn Ring Mini where I managed to attach myself to Sam's Elise on the last lap by not pitting 
) - Other than that, good stuff, didn't realise I had the quickest lap in Race 1 - not sure if that was the lap where I was ahead of F1, but it's a nice to have either way
) - Other than that, good stuff, didn't realise I had the quickest lap in Race 1 - not sure if that was the lap where I was ahead of F1, but it's a nice to have either way 
Alfanatic said:
Yep, Carmo's missed pit should have a time penalty, McSam's win in race 2 IMO.
carmo pitted on the last lap as he realised his mistake also this has happened a few times this season without penalty so did not apply a penalty due to this and also for it being the last race of this seasonCJ1987 said:
carmo pitted on the last lap as he realised his mistake also this has happened a few times this season without penalty so did not apply a penalty due to this and also for it being the last race of this season
Please don't take offence to this Colin, but this is the wrong decision, for 2 reasons:The rules apply to every race of the championship, from the first to the last - you cannot allow something to take place and not penalise it just because it's the last race of the season.
If it's permitted to pit on the very last lap and finish that lap in the pit lane, we'd all do it, and it would make a farce of the race itself.
Just my 2p worth - nothing against Carmo, but rules are rules IMO.
Edited by fuelracer496 on Thursday 16th May 11:50
First of all you dont need to keep saying "dont take offense" when ever you question a decision or put a suggestion forward to me as long as it has substance to the argument/suggestion, unlike what some people think im not a dictator where if you say anything to me your immediately in my firing line for doing so.
Now onto my decision, i didnt say because its the last race you can get away with anything but what i did say is it did have a part in the decision (small one i might add). The main reason why carmo didnt get penalized was because it was a genuine mistake and its the first time he has ever done this since he joined the champ also it has happened earlier in the season and didnt get penalized so would be unfair to treat carmo differently to everyone else who done the same.
Your right in that rules must be adhered to but i do give lee way to drivers if i feel they deserve it and in this case carmo got it because these sort of mistakes can happen if your battling hard with someone you can forget which lap your on. I also want to add is that if any driver done it a second time then they would be penalized but if i start penalizing everyone for every infringement of the rules even if its small then it would kill the champ so thats why i look at every bit of detail, for example i look at it from the drivers pov, what the driver is normally like, if they tried to rectify their mistake, if they have done it before and if they apologized for it immediately afterwards to name just a view.
Hopefully this clarifies what my "thought process" is as some people put it
Now onto my decision, i didnt say because its the last race you can get away with anything but what i did say is it did have a part in the decision (small one i might add). The main reason why carmo didnt get penalized was because it was a genuine mistake and its the first time he has ever done this since he joined the champ also it has happened earlier in the season and didnt get penalized so would be unfair to treat carmo differently to everyone else who done the same.
Your right in that rules must be adhered to but i do give lee way to drivers if i feel they deserve it and in this case carmo got it because these sort of mistakes can happen if your battling hard with someone you can forget which lap your on. I also want to add is that if any driver done it a second time then they would be penalized but if i start penalizing everyone for every infringement of the rules even if its small then it would kill the champ so thats why i look at every bit of detail, for example i look at it from the drivers pov, what the driver is normally like, if they tried to rectify their mistake, if they have done it before and if they apologized for it immediately afterwards to name just a view.
Hopefully this clarifies what my "thought process" is as some people put it
You can't be serious.
Might I direct you to Tsukuba, where I made the mistake of not pitting. The first time I'd done such a thing, just like Carmo. I held up my hands, just like Carmo. I tried to pit on the last lap but was only allowed to drive through, just like Carmo. I won the race as a result, just like Carmo. And, quite rightly, I was penalised for roughly the time the correct pit stop should have cost me, twenty seconds, just like..
Oh wait, there's one f
king set of rules for me and another for everyone else, is there?
I'm certain Carmo had no intention of being classified first as a result of his mistake, and only kept driving because he wanted to see where he stacked up in the battle he was having for second. I'm not going to touch F1 in this championship, nor will Carmo's standings change, so it makes no difference at all. You could at least have the good grace to give me the win I earned in the last race of the season.
Might I direct you to Tsukuba, where I made the mistake of not pitting. The first time I'd done such a thing, just like Carmo. I held up my hands, just like Carmo. I tried to pit on the last lap but was only allowed to drive through, just like Carmo. I won the race as a result, just like Carmo. And, quite rightly, I was penalised for roughly the time the correct pit stop should have cost me, twenty seconds, just like..
Oh wait, there's one f
king set of rules for me and another for everyone else, is there?I'm certain Carmo had no intention of being classified first as a result of his mistake, and only kept driving because he wanted to see where he stacked up in the battle he was having for second. I'm not going to touch F1 in this championship, nor will Carmo's standings change, so it makes no difference at all. You could at least have the good grace to give me the win I earned in the last race of the season.
McSam said:
You can't be serious.
Might I direct you to Tsukuba, where I made the mistake of not pitting. The first time I'd done such a thing, just like Carmo. I held up my hands, just like Carmo. I tried to pit on the last lap but was only allowed to drive through, just like Carmo. I won the race as a result, just like Carmo. And, quite rightly, I was penalised for roughly the time the correct pit stop should have cost me, twenty seconds, just like..
Oh wait, there's one fking set of rules for me and another for everyone else, is there?
I'm certain Carmo had no intention of being classified first as a result of his mistake, and only kept driving because he wanted to see where he stacked up in the battle he was having for second. I'm not going to touch F1 in this championship, nor will Carmo's standings change, so it makes no difference at all. You could at least have the good grace to give me the win I earned in the last race of the season.
difference is sam that when carmo realised what he done he pitted at the end of the last lap to try and make up for it, in tsukuba you didnt so both cases arent exactly the same as you claim also there has been other drivers in the past (myself included) that didnt pit at the right time for varying reasons who didnt get penalized, weird how you havent objected to them before but seem to only be doing it now as the other drivers mistake put you in 2nd.Might I direct you to Tsukuba, where I made the mistake of not pitting. The first time I'd done such a thing, just like Carmo. I held up my hands, just like Carmo. I tried to pit on the last lap but was only allowed to drive through, just like Carmo. I won the race as a result, just like Carmo. And, quite rightly, I was penalised for roughly the time the correct pit stop should have cost me, twenty seconds, just like..
Oh wait, there's one f
king set of rules for me and another for everyone else, is there?I'm certain Carmo had no intention of being classified first as a result of his mistake, and only kept driving because he wanted to see where he stacked up in the battle he was having for second. I'm not going to touch F1 in this championship, nor will Carmo's standings change, so it makes no difference at all. You could at least have the good grace to give me the win I earned in the last race of the season.
You are the one who has double standards not me so stop claiming it as its starting to get tiresome.
CJ is right in that in the past, this season, this has happened (driver pitted at end of last lap instead of second last), and the driver has not been penalised.
The driver definitely gains an advantage both due to not having to actually complete a lap on the medium compound and also doesn't suffer a time penalty from the outlap time spent on the pit speed limiter, and gains even more if he crosses the finish line before arriving at his pitbox. Without checking the replay I cannot verify whether this gain meant the difference between 1st and 2nd for Carmo, however, I believe that McSam had a comfortable lead before the stop and it is reasonable to assume that McSam has lost out due to this mistake and Carmo has gained.
However, if you look at the championship tables, while it does have an impact on the coupe class where McSam and Carmo would swap places, it has no impact on the overall championship table where neither driver have gained or lost a position, and the problem is that this has happened in the past without being queried - thus a precedent is set and for fairness the same action (or lack of) needs to be applied here too.
It could be debated whether this type of action should have carried a penalty throughout the season, but IMO it's not worth dragging through all previous instances to apply a change fairly. That's an awful lot of work to retrospectively slightly shuffle what is, don't forget, just a computer based leisure activity. Also noone apparently intentionally took advantage (I realised it was an advantage when it happened in race 1 but chose not to exploit it and to the best of my knowledge noone else did either) and discussing possible future updates to the rule is moot because next season there are no mandatory stops anyway.
If Carmo didn't pit at all then I'd be calling for a 25 second penalty - and did - but since he did pit, on the last lap, then the action needs to follow the precedents set in previous instances when this has happened, and that is what CJ has done. McSam is a victim in this case, for sure, but a few others have been as well this season too, so we either move on and remember the lesson for the future or we spend time and effort compensating all the victims, redoing the race results and recalculating the points, from race 1. I suggest we go with the former?
The driver definitely gains an advantage both due to not having to actually complete a lap on the medium compound and also doesn't suffer a time penalty from the outlap time spent on the pit speed limiter, and gains even more if he crosses the finish line before arriving at his pitbox. Without checking the replay I cannot verify whether this gain meant the difference between 1st and 2nd for Carmo, however, I believe that McSam had a comfortable lead before the stop and it is reasonable to assume that McSam has lost out due to this mistake and Carmo has gained.
However, if you look at the championship tables, while it does have an impact on the coupe class where McSam and Carmo would swap places, it has no impact on the overall championship table where neither driver have gained or lost a position, and the problem is that this has happened in the past without being queried - thus a precedent is set and for fairness the same action (or lack of) needs to be applied here too.
It could be debated whether this type of action should have carried a penalty throughout the season, but IMO it's not worth dragging through all previous instances to apply a change fairly. That's an awful lot of work to retrospectively slightly shuffle what is, don't forget, just a computer based leisure activity. Also noone apparently intentionally took advantage (I realised it was an advantage when it happened in race 1 but chose not to exploit it and to the best of my knowledge noone else did either) and discussing possible future updates to the rule is moot because next season there are no mandatory stops anyway.
If Carmo didn't pit at all then I'd be calling for a 25 second penalty - and did - but since he did pit, on the last lap, then the action needs to follow the precedents set in previous instances when this has happened, and that is what CJ has done. McSam is a victim in this case, for sure, but a few others have been as well this season too, so we either move on and remember the lesson for the future or we spend time and effort compensating all the victims, redoing the race results and recalculating the points, from race 1. I suggest we go with the former?
FYI, Kiseca, he crossed the line before reaching his pitbox and the game didn't allow him to stop, as it was the last lap. So he gained circa 20-25 seconds, which makes sense as those he was battling finished 24 seconds behind him. I had around a twenty-second lead over Carmo before pitting, and made no mistakes on my final lap. And after a lot of practice work and another bloody disconnection, I was quite looking forward to a sound victory in the last race.
Oh, and I thought I did attempt to pit on the last lap at Tsukuba - perhaps instead I kept driving because I believed F1 (after seeing me forget) hadn't pitted either and that meant we could fight to the finish. In any case, I fully expected the time penalty for it.
Oh, and I thought I did attempt to pit on the last lap at Tsukuba - perhaps instead I kept driving because I believed F1 (after seeing me forget) hadn't pitted either and that meant we could fight to the finish. In any case, I fully expected the time penalty for it.
Edited by McSam on Thursday 16th May 12:50
McSam, in my mind you won the race and you came third in the coupe class table. I'm not arguing whether or not you've lost out, you almost certainly have. I'm also not arguing about whether or not there should have been a rule in place for this particular scenario. It would have been fairer to punish it. But there wasn't a rule for it.
I'm arguing that the material gain from fixing this retrospectively is not worth the effort required because it's not just this race that would need fixing.
I'm arguing that the material gain from fixing this retrospectively is not worth the effort required because it's not just this race that would need fixing.
To try and put this to bed, I'll say something that'll properly upset the place:
I think Season 5 should be put on hold until we have some rules that every driver agrees with, and doesn't have any grey areas. On track incidents can be dealt with by the drivers panel, as has been discussed already (we have 3 volunteers, we just need 2 alternates - apply within, send CV to Colin etc).
I believe there's too many loopholes and areas that aren't covered in the rules. This means people can either exploit them for an advantage, or in some cases, be penalised for them because if it's not written down, you will not necessarily know about it until you see the results table after a race.
Colin, is this a fair statement? Would you agree that if the rules were a bit more watertight, the advantages would be two fold; penalties can be applied with more simplicity, as these grey areas will have a more definitive outline of what's permitted, and secondly, you wouldn't face the wrath of those being penalised when they argue their case about a decision for which a penalty hasn't been written down anywhere.
((hugs))
I think Season 5 should be put on hold until we have some rules that every driver agrees with, and doesn't have any grey areas. On track incidents can be dealt with by the drivers panel, as has been discussed already (we have 3 volunteers, we just need 2 alternates - apply within, send CV to Colin etc).
I believe there's too many loopholes and areas that aren't covered in the rules. This means people can either exploit them for an advantage, or in some cases, be penalised for them because if it's not written down, you will not necessarily know about it until you see the results table after a race.
Colin, is this a fair statement? Would you agree that if the rules were a bit more watertight, the advantages would be two fold; penalties can be applied with more simplicity, as these grey areas will have a more definitive outline of what's permitted, and secondly, you wouldn't face the wrath of those being penalised when they argue their case about a decision for which a penalty hasn't been written down anywhere.
((hugs))
Next season's rules already fix this particular problem by abolishing the two compound requirement. I'd actually be inclined to move more towards simplicity, which is what removing the two compound rule has done. Other than the tyre limit and PP limit, I'd vote for just one rule: Don't screw anyone over. How to apply that in practice: Don't exploit loopholes even if you do find them.
The more serious the rules, the more serious the championship, and being too serious is not what has got it to season 5. The difference between the Season 3 thread and this thread is massive, but the rules are very similar. The artificial pitstop caused by the fact that the tyres could last a full race has caused a lot of complications, but next season it's gone. Lesson learnt and job done, IMO.
The more serious the rules, the more serious the championship, and being too serious is not what has got it to season 5. The difference between the Season 3 thread and this thread is massive, but the rules are very similar. The artificial pitstop caused by the fact that the tyres could last a full race has caused a lot of complications, but next season it's gone. Lesson learnt and job done, IMO.
Edited by Alfanatic on Thursday 16th May 13:34
Alfanatic said:
Next season's rules already fix this particular problem by abolishing the two compound requirement.
as kiseca says there's no mandatory pitstop rule anymore so the 2 compound rule is also gone but id be interested in hearing the other loopholes because tbh i cant se any atmCJ1987 said:
as kiseca says there's no mandatory pitstop rule anymore so the 2 compound rule is also gone but id be interested in hearing the other loopholes because tbh i cant se any atm
I agree that the tyre compound / pitting rule is already sorted, I wasn't specifically talking about that. In terms of loop holes - Colin, shall I pm you or do you want this to be covered publicly? Fartgalen said:
Says this on the first page:
Points:
Not using 2 compounds in a race = -2 points
Well, that too.. I'm not bothered about the points, there's nothing but principle here. I was the quickest guy on track, drove well in a faster car and should have won emphatically. I would've liked the credit for that.Points:
Not using 2 compounds in a race = -2 points
I completely agree with Fuel, as far as getting things thoroughly sorted before continuing is concerned. As we're now finished with this season I suppose we're not cluttering the thread by talking about it.
My thoughts are that, if we have a drivers' panel, we can quite happily take Kiseca's idea of "don't screw anyone over", use common sense and accepted etiquette to apply it and carry on. But I feel that if the decisions are left to an individual, they need to be fully accountable by explaining everything and having a complete set of rules to apply, otherwise some very, very unexpected things can happen.
Wow, you all have been busy all day seeing the conversations. I love this championship - never a dull moment.
Just from my side, I made a mistake due to all the fun I was having with F11 - and hence pitted on the last lap as a "compensation" to show I messed up - I commented as such in the forum. I then "won" but in my mind I clearly didn't and I would have accepted any penality without discussion. I do not feel good about the outcome.
Just from my side, I made a mistake due to all the fun I was having with F11 - and hence pitted on the last lap as a "compensation" to show I messed up - I commented as such in the forum. I then "won" but in my mind I clearly didn't and I would have accepted any penality without discussion. I do not feel good about the outcome.
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