emmigrating to New Zealand

[Omerta]

Thank you Cheddar, Mark and many other immigrant posters on this thread for your personal 'why I love living here' anecdotes.

But I have to tell you I am quite shocked at your deception! I hadn't realised, after all these years we have been PHers together, that you are in fact all Indian and Chinese! How else to explain your immigrant bliss!

Now I am over the shock though, I actually hope you are because the only other valid explanation is that you are in fact just ignorant and unworldly Kiwis pretending to have a valid opinion in order to perpetuate the myth of NZ being quite a nice place to live.

[REMF]

Omerta said:

Thank you Cheddar, Mark and many other immigrant posters on this thread for your personal 'why I love living here' anecdotes.

But I have to tell you I am quite shocked at your deception! I hadn't realised, after all these years we have been PHers together, that you are in fact all Indian and Chinese! How else to explain your immigrant bliss!

Now I am over the shock though, I actually hope you are because the only other valid explanation is that you are in fact just ignorant and unworldly Kiwis pretending to have a valid opinion in order to perpetuate the myth of NZ being quite a nice place to live.

No-one suggested that Kiwis were little islanders who are largely ignorant of the world around them, and if someone is happy with their little piece of the world, then good for them so trying to debase ones opinion by deliberately misunderstanding ones perspective is laughable and actually makes my argument ever more defined, by assuming everyone reading neutrally is stupid, you undermine the basis of the point you are clumsily making.

By all means, don't take my word for it though;

http://e2nz.org/migrant-stories/chapter-1/why-are-...

http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/unlimited/8273786/Fl...

http://www.avalonsguide.com/anab/2011/02/why-do-so...

Don't let the facts stand in the way of why it's not a great place to live though.

[Omerta]

RE.F - you really need to stop taking yourself so seriously. You have a point of view, fine, just accept its not shared by everyone and get on with your own miserable life wherever it makes you less miserable.

[uncinqsix]

Omerta said:

RE.F - you really need to stop taking yourself so seriously. You have a point of view, fine, just accept its not shared by everyone and get on with your own miserable life wherever it makes you less miserable.

I actually think he enjoys being miserable. Most of us just recognise that NZ isn't perfect, but manage to carve out a happy and comfortable existence despite. But then none of us have any experience of the outside world do we? (I must have imagined nearly running out of space for visa stamps in my last passport...)

[cheddar]

Sun just up, another stunning day:

Out front looking across to the golf course, too frosty for an early tee off today so cosy'd up in front of the log burner watching Rory and Tiger at 'The Players' at TPC Sawgrass while it thaws out.



Out back across the frost:



And Mt Hutt live webcams with early season snow

http://www.nzski.com/mountain.jsp?site=coronetpeak...

[REMF]

uncinqsix said:

I actually think he enjoys being miserable. Most of us just recognise that NZ isn't perfect, but manage to carve out a happy and comfortable existence despite. But then none of us have any experience of the outside world do we? (I must have imagined nearly running out of space for visa stamps in my last passport...)

Who's miserable? Not me, I'm happier than an All Blacks domestic violence counsellor, like them, business is booming!

Having lived here for 2 years, I'm very accustomed to the Kiwi brow beating and amatuer attempts at bullying anyone who sticks their head up having seen other less well equipped people suffer so it's easy to push back when you recognise it's the way one has to survive in NZ, so I don't blame you for the personal jibes and 2 dimensional arguments, I know this is how you survive in that hand to mouth existence so many of you endure

Why have a structured and properly cited debate when a no8 wire debate will suffice with a hastily constructed narrative based on the fact a few of you know a few people who like it here which utterly fails to address the OP's question about coming here as an EMIGRANT, come on, no wonder people leave the country, the intellectual malaise must be stifling if nothing else!

It's drummed into you from a young age that Kiwi is good and everything else is bad, there's no critical thought about anything, those that need to express themselves properly leave doubling the IQ of where they go and halving the IQ of who's left.

[Omerta]

You really haven't been listening have you RE.F. There's at least as many emigrants here expressing their satisfaction with NZ life as there are well travelled Kiwis.

You claim to want reasoned debate but then refuse to accept anyone else's right to have an informed and valid view. I accept that there are people who will find NZ is not the best place to live, and I wouldn't judge them for that. I do wonder about anyone who can only see the bad in a place though.

The point has been made over, and over, and over again that different people like different things in life and there's good and bad everywhere. Why is it so hard for you to accept that intelligent, reasonable, well travelled people might just have an entirely valid, albeit different, experience and opinion of New Zealand life than you? You haven't been here long but has it occurred to you that some of the people whose views you are dismissing just might have found more success, more happiness, more love, and more joy in their lives here than you? And I wonder why that would be....

[uncinqsix]

REMF said:

Who's miserable? Not me, I'm happier than an All Blacks domestic violence counsellor, like them, business is booming!

Having lived here for 2 years, I'm very accustomed to the Kiwi brow beating and amatuer attempts at bullying anyone who sticks their head up having seen other less well equipped people suffer so it's easy to push back when you recognise it's the way one has to survive in NZ, so I don't blame you for the personal jibes and 2 dimensional arguments, I know this is how you survive in that hand to mouth existence so many of you endure

Why have a structured and properly cited debate when a no8 wire debate will suffice with a hastily constructed narrative based on the fact a few of you know a few people who like it here which utterly fails to address the OP's question about coming here as an EMIGRANT, come on, no wonder people leave the country, the intellectual malaise must be stifling if nothing else!

It's drummed into you from a young age that Kiwi is good and everything else is bad, there's no critical thought about anything, those that need to express themselves properly leave doubling the IQ of where they go and halving the IQ of who's left.

How it is possible to have a "structured and properly cited debate" with someone who doesn't accept that anyone else's opinion holds any validity and who denigrates them by describing them as uninformed sheep who are incapable of critical thinking?

And what's the point of debating people's opinions anyway? I'm not going the argue the fact that you don't like it here and that you have your reasons for reaching the conclusions you have. You have made some valid points in amongst the hyperbole, and nobody would disagree that there are things that really need to be improved. However, it is also a fact that myself and plenty of others do like it here, and we have reached that conclusion with our eyes open to the outside world and what it has to offer. Believe it on not, these two positions are not mutually exclusive - there is no "wrong" or "right" where perceptions are concerned.

And what makes your narrative, as an immigrant, any more valid or "less hastily constructed" than that from any other immigrant from the UK?

[REMF]

uncinqsix said:

How it is possible to have a "structured and properly cited debate" with someone who doesn't accept that anyone else's opinion holds any validity and who denigrates them by describing them as uninformed sheep who are incapable of critical thinking?

And what's the point of debating people's opinions anyway? I'm not going the argue the fact that you don't like it here and that you have your reasons for reaching the conclusions you have. You have made some valid points in amongst the hyperbole, and nobody would disagree that there are things that really need to be improved. However, it is also a fact that myself and plenty of others do like it here, and we have reached that conclusion with our eyes open to the outside world and what it has to offer. Believe it on not, these two positions are not mutually exclusive - there is no "wrong" or "right" where perceptions are concerned.

And what makes your narrative, as an immigrant, any more valid or "less hastily constructed" than that from any other immigrant from the UK?

I do accept other people opinions where they construct a coherent argument and present it with an understandable narrative, you and your mate haven't in my opinion, in fact, you seem overly defensive and unwilling to listen and that's the purview of someone, in my experience, who is desperately hanging onto the idea that they've made the right choices in life.......

I agree there is no wrong or right but that's not the point of the OP's question is it? This argument has demonstrated the closed and illogical nature of life in NZ if nothing else, don't stick your head out, don't talk back, don't have an opinion, these things must becomes ones mantra to be happy in New Zealand.

I'm glad you like it here, I'm happy that you've decided to duck out of life and hide away from common sense, progress, innovation and real human contact that sustains and nurtures, I really am, long may it continue!!

[uncinqsix]

REMF said:

I do accept other people opinions where they construct a coherent argument and present it with an understandable narrative, you and your mate haven't in my opinion, in fact, you seem overly defensive and unwilling to listen and that's the purview of someone, in my experience, who is desperately hanging onto the idea that they've made the right choices in life.......

I agree there is no wrong or right but that's not the point of the OP's question is it? This argument has demonstrated the closed and illogical nature of life in NZ if nothing else, don't stick your head out, don't talk back, don't have an opinion, these things must becomes ones mantra to be happy in New Zealand.

I'm glad you like it here, I'm happy that you've decided to duck out of life and hide away from common sense, progress, innovation and real human contact that sustains and nurtures, I really am, long may it continue!!

So what "coherent arguments" have you constructed? I've seen a lot of lazy, gross generalisations (e.g. "the people are witless, humourless and dull conversationalists unless rugby is your thing. Casual racism abounds, alcohol and family violence issues are common occurrences, there is no intellectualism, no culture unless the regularly whipped out Haka floats your boat"), and some nonsense about how crimes are worse because "its the size of NZ in relation to these things that bothers me".

And then you go and describe a perfectly well informed decision to live in NZ as a decision to "duck out of life and hide away from common sense, progress, innovation and real human contact that sustains and nurtures". Frankly, that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Do you honestly not see how condescending you are? And do you really think that assuming a superior, dismissive attitude is the best way to engage with anybody anywhere in the world?


I don't really know why I'm bothering replying to this rubbish. I've had more productive discussions with my 3 year old.


You win REMF. NZ is a dump, but I'm too stupid to leave the country and live elsewhere. I'm off to go and beat my wife and watch the rugby.

Edited by uncinqsix on Saturday 11th May 02:07

[REMF]

uncinqsix said:

So what "coherent arguments" have you constructed? I've seen a lot of lazy, gross generalisations (e.g. "the people are witless, humourless and dull conversationalists unless rugby is your thing. Casual racism abounds, alcohol and family violence issues are common occurrences, there is no intellectualism, no culture unless the regularly whipped out Haka floats your boat"), and some nonsense about how crimes are worse because "its the size of NZ in relation to these things that bothers me".

And then you go and describe a perfectly well informed decision to live in NZ as a decision to "duck out of life and hide away from common sense, progress, innovation and real human contact that sustains and nurtures". Frankly, that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Do you honestly not see how condescending you are? And do you really think that assuming a superior, dismissive attitude is the best way to engage with anybody anywhere in the world?


I don't really know why I'm bothering replying to this rubbish. I've had more productive discussions with my 3 year old.


You win REMF. NZ is a dump, but I'm too stupid to leave the country and live elsewhere. I'm off to go and beat my wife and watch the rugby.

Edited by uncinqsix on Saturday 11th May 02:07

Boring! It's not about winning or losing, another Kiwi trait, they are bad winners and losers too!

You're still flapping around the periphery of this discussion and if you've had more productive conversations with your 3 year old then you've either;

A. Found your intellectual and emotional level with the 3 year old

B. Realized that's its better than chatting about rugby and comparing domestic violence stories

C. You're on P

D. All of the above

Come back when you understand the nuances of reasonable discussion.

[Omerta]

And now it's puerile personal abuse.... I'm out.

[CR6ZZ]

REMF said:

I'm glad you like it here, I'm happy that you've decided to duck out of life and hide away from common sense, progress, innovation and real human contact that sustains and nurtures, I really am, long may it continue!!

I really don't see that your position is any different from any other poster on here REMF. You have an opinion and you refuse to waver from it. Others have opposing opinions that are equally entrenched. Each is equally valid. Having traveled extensively and having resided over seas and being of at least average, if not better intelligence, I quite frankly find your above statement extremely patronizing and offensive. I view my decision to reside here as being entirely common sensical (nowhere else in the world provides me with the lifestyle I have here and the means to enjoy it to the same extent). I find the Kiwis that I interact with are, in general, highly innovative and many are world leaders in their fields. I enjoy human contact with my fellows and I find that interaction with them is amply sustaining and nurturing. At 60 years of age I have been round long enough to recognise that money isn't everything and that one never stops learning. So please, do not feel sorry for me trapped here in NZ. I am here by choice and I love it. I sincerely hope you find somewhere you can be just as happy.

Edited by CR6ZZ on Saturday 11th May 06:47

[REMF]

CR6ZZ said:

I really don't see that your position is any different from any other poster on here REMF. You have an opinion and you refuse to waver from it. Others have opposing opinions that are equally entrenched. Each is equally valid. Having traveled extensively and having resided over seas and being of at least average, if not better intelligence, I quite frankly find your above statement extremely patronizing and offensive. I view my decision to reside here as being entirely common sensical (nowhere else in the world provides me with the lifestyle I have here and the means to enjoy it to the same extent). I find the Kiwis that I interact with are, in general, highly innovative and many are world leaders in their fields. I enjoy human contact with my fellows and I find that interaction with them is amply sustaining and nurturing. At 60 years of age I have been round long enough to recognise that money isn't everything and that one never stops learning. So please, do not feel sorry for me trapped here in NZ. I am here by choice and I love it. I sincerely hope you find somewhere you can be just as happy.

Edited by CR6ZZ on Saturday 11th May 06:47

I don't disagree with you, I never did, I acknowledged at the point I came in that it suits some.

There's been a debate and a few people flounced off when I didn't accede to their opinion, that is a very Kiwi attribute with the less aware ones. I noticed that a number of people also broadly agreed with my opinion too, as would be normal with any debate. This is why anyone considering coming here needs to be super aware of what they are getting themselves into, the dumbing down, the basic guttural utterances of those who don't want to acknowledge differences of opinion and learn, the passive aggressiveness and overt aggression that one encounters daily here.

[CR6ZZ]

I suspect that some of those who have argued against you have noted a certain disdain in many of your responses, as tough somehow enjoying life here is indicative of a lack of ambition/culture/sophistication or just plain laziness. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I would argue that those same people would likely find the type of lifestyle that you might find fulfilling equally distasteful. Such is life.

[REMF]

CR6ZZ said:

I suspect that some of those who have argued against you have noted a certain disdain in many of your responses, as tough somehow enjoying life here is indicative of a lack of ambition/culture/sophistication or just plain laziness. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I would argue that those same people would likely find the type of lifestyle that you might find fulfilling equally distasteful. Such is life.

Indeed, the rich tapestry and all that.

Interestingly, I never mentioned what what be my lifestyle and what I consider acceptable.

[NicD]

I have just read this thread from from the start, a real mixed bag.

I grew up in and around Auckland (am 58 now), have always been a PH and came over to the UK in 1984 partly to buy a '73 2.7 RS one of which which i had been lucky enough to drive around Pukekohe Circuit during a Lotus race day. (NOT NEARLY enough car stuff in this thread!)

Lot of water under the bridge but now live in West London, in a small but beautifully situated apartment overlooking the Thames. Wonderful apart from the frequent annoying drone of jets landing at Heathrow.

I made a 'trial' retirement in London and Javea Spain, but found it was premature on the money side - my SIPP full of AIM mining companies disappeared down the plughole.

One conclusion i have reached, when I do retire for good (in 2-3 years) I DO NOT WANT TO SPEND WINTERS IN THE UK.

In London, from October to late March, I really dont enjoy being outside, days get really short, cold and frequently unpleasant.

Had scoped out Javea as a six month alternate and maybe will still go with this as climate and beach/countryside is great. HOWEVER, the Spanish economic meltdown and corruption is still unwinding , and life will get harder for incomers.
I want what every Kiwi wants, a feeling of privacy and a great view while not being too isolated.

So my thoughts have turned back to NZ. Not back to Auckland as already pointed out, my GBP cannot compete with the nouveau rich locals.

Was thinking of Nelson as the climate and views look nice. I dont really know it so would have to spend some time renting to get some first hand.

Some of my old friends from Auckland follow REMF's line, say I would not like it back there. Maybe they are right, 'the grass is greener' is a very strong force.
Of course, since I have been away so long and now have a UK accent, I will be treated as a Pom. Would have to be careful not to whinge.

My other half is 'London born and bred' and not keen on the move, but willing to give it a go. Anyway, it wouldn't be a for a while.

I was hoping this thread may help the decision. Still am.

Best
Nic

[lestag]

NicD said:

Was thinking of Nelson as the climate and views look nice. I dont really know it so would have to spend some time renting to get some first hand.

All depends what you are looking for. Nelson is also one of the places I think would be good to retire to as well (but I am a tad younger than you ) Good café and arts. Myself, I would want to be in the country/costal. It's of the more expensive provincial districts in terms of house prices http://www.qv.co.nz/onlinereports/marketstatistics...

Really, each and every person needs to look at what they want, list it down, do the research and see what each location ticks in the way of those boxes.
I think renting is a great idea

Such sweeping generalisations and stereotyping about NZ and NZer's, as seen in this thread, are irrelevant. You need to experience it for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

[NicD]

Agreed, its common sense.

As for negative reporting of NZ, I have just read the Daily Mail online, and if it had been full of horrendous stories back in '84, I would have stayed put or perhaps tried to get a green card for LA.

Anyway, summertime in London, so green and pleasant, though still the odd shower.

Nowhere is perfect, but since I grew up in aptly named Beachlands on the Hauraki Gulf, its a hard act to follow.

Best
Nic

[Zadkiel]

I really do think this thread needs to be closed. There is way too much hatred and personal attacks.

I really think it's odd that someone would hate a country that much that they feel the need to continually repeat themselves about it but oh well.

I have lived in a few countries (including the UK) and travelled to a great deal more. I have enjoyed visiting them all and I enjoyed living overseas too, a great deal. But I'm back in NZ now and I love it here the most. I'm happy with that, and happy with everyone else making their own decisions too, so just chill people!