New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
thecook101 said:
DonkeyApple said:
All impressions so far are that it will be a road car of comparable size to the 911/ftype arena. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a car dressed up for LE Mans to make the most of photo and marketing opportunities around the time of launch but there is nothing to suggest the road car is aiming remotely at the track day market as anything other than an aside. Fast road car for drivers, with a few essential electronics and mod cons and as comfortable as they can make it given the budget and weight restrictions.
So why is there the option to select the LE version or the regular version? What is the difference going to be - besides the carbon iStream chassis? Bear in mind I'm not suggesting anything and I have no further information - just seeing what people think as I love the story and I'm keen to participate. I have a couple other cars that cover off fast road and GT driving so I'm really hoping that the LE car is going to be properly hardcore - something special.I've not read anything official that intimates that the LE will be a track car or anything other than a very vast driver's car for the road with excellent track capabilities. They've also said it won't be anything as extreme as the Sagaris was. As they want to go the LE Man's and as race cars look great for marketing then it wouldn't surprise me if they unveil a race car in full aero at a similar time to unveiling the LE though.
They want to sell cars so they won't be making a £100k track car. It'll be a road car that can hold its own against other road cars that cost more than £100k. All intimations from the company is that it will be a sports car capable of being used as a GR.
Sure. I'm not suggesting - or at least I didn't intend to suggest - that it would be a track car, just that perhaps the LE vs the regular version would be comparable to the 430 Scuderia vs the F430 and the 458 Speciale vs the 458 Italia. Not specifically a track car but a more hardcore version, options added but also some removed to reduce weight. Anyway - just my thoughts, looking forward to finding out more.
thecook101 said:
m4tti said:
thecook101 said:
Ah - thanks. Running out of steam on the first day back at the office.
Do people think that the LE car is going to be a track focussed no-compromise car while later cars will have a more refined interior and better NVH resolution? Is the 400 bhp-per-ton figure for the 500 LE cars or will that be for all of the 'first edition' cars? I'm starting to think that the LE cars will not only have the carbon iStream chassis but will also have a far sparser interior than the later cars. This will not only make them lighter but also shorten the development time. That should enable them to get the LE out the door quicker, re-establish TVR as the hardcore performance option, and give more time to refine the non-LE version.
I saw your earlier post hypothesising it will be on par with a BAC mono... which i can almost guarantee it won't be if they are to survive for any length of time.Do people think that the LE car is going to be a track focussed no-compromise car while later cars will have a more refined interior and better NVH resolution? Is the 400 bhp-per-ton figure for the 500 LE cars or will that be for all of the 'first edition' cars? I'm starting to think that the LE cars will not only have the carbon iStream chassis but will also have a far sparser interior than the later cars. This will not only make them lighter but also shorten the development time. That should enable them to get the LE out the door quicker, re-establish TVR as the hardcore performance option, and give more time to refine the non-LE version.
thecook101 said:
The LE car will be a BAC Mono competitor with a roof and with the Mono at £110k specced up I think the LE will be well priced. The later cars will have the refinement to compete with the F-Types and 911s but they have another 2 years to get that right.
If they can deliver a reliable, laugh out loud, 200mph, OMFG! drivers car with the LE for under £100k then they'll have my money. Not too many of those going to be made again. I'm genuinely excited to see what's behind the curtain in March.
Make your mind up If they can deliver a reliable, laugh out loud, 200mph, OMFG! drivers car with the LE for under £100k then they'll have my money. Not too many of those going to be made again. I'm genuinely excited to see what's behind the curtain in March.
thecook101 said:
? I thought we were just having a discussion here, where you can throw out thoughts for feedback. If you want to prove a point or have an argument count me out. I'm just an interested petrolhead.
You did see the smiling face didn't you.... Regardless I found your BAC mono comparison interesting as I toyed with the deposit on this but keep umming and arring over what to do next.. go sensible or something track focussed.. the ultimate streetable track car will be the Radical RXC... but then I'm pretty much back to where I am with a TVR.. wife won't come out in it, awful in the rain.. etc
m4tti said:
You did see the smiling face didn't you....
Regardless I found your BAC mono comparison interesting as I toyed with the deposit on this but keep umming and arring over what to do next.. go sensible or something track focussed.. the ultimate streetable track car will be the Radical RXC... but then I'm pretty much back to where I am with a TVR.. wife won't come out in it, awful in the rain.. etc
Apologies - far too quick.Regardless I found your BAC mono comparison interesting as I toyed with the deposit on this but keep umming and arring over what to do next.. go sensible or something track focussed.. the ultimate streetable track car will be the Radical RXC... but then I'm pretty much back to where I am with a TVR.. wife won't come out in it, awful in the rain.. etc
Sounds like you are at a similar place to me. I'm hoping the LE will be a track focussed car. I understand it's not a track car but I want to be able to drive it to the track and then have a blast. I currently use an F430 for this but I'd rather keep this for fast road use and wide open tracks like Silverstone. I'd like something with a manual gearbox and much lighter - a much higher bhp per ton ratio. I've thought about a Ginetta, a Radical and a Caterham but I'm not convinced I'd be able to drive to Spa etc and still be in any shape to track it in one of them. Plus - no way the wife will get in with me
The TVR story has caught me though. Les has said all the right things so far and the delays aren't too much of a worry for me - getting it right is more important. I'm hoping that at the reveal we will see a car that ticks all these boxes. Yes it will be a road car but if you really want to use it's full potential - without being a dangerous nob - then the track is where you will do this. If the LE is pitched purely as a 911 CS replacement then I'd have to rethink things.
where do we believe the price of the LE will be at? I have read guesstimates from £55k up to £100k. I have contacted TVR to ask them if they can at least let depositeers know roughly where the price will be at so we can sort out our finances. Doubt I will receive an answer with a figure although they should by now be able to give a range. Will I need to sell my existing TVR etc or will it simply be out of my price range or better cars to buy with less money. I am going to struggle to spend £90k plus on a new TVR even if it is amazing. TVR has always offered fantastic performance value for money. Are those days over?
essexstu said:
there has been several discussions. I remember one saying base model will be £50k so add £20k for the LE which is £70k. This level I think would work but at £85k there are some very tempting alternatives!
If you think about it, you can't build a decent spec Ultima Evo yourself for 55k, so the likely hood of a low volume producer putting a high performance GT car together for the same sort of money is unlikely. And.. unless your taking a bunch of finance out on this thing, people who are financially savvy cash buyers will also consider the used market, as the game has changed with manufacturer used approved cars..
So at a shade over 55k you have Audi R8 v10, 997 turbo, a newish Nissan GTR, a Ferrari 360, a couple of year old jaguar F-type of various engines... a number of lotuses... If its 70k plus then you have even more choice and Gallardos, R8 v10 spider, V12 Astons, the very cheapest F430 etc move onto the playing field.. in addition to which all of the later effectively won't depreciate...
Which means what they are attempting is pretty mammoth...
m4tti said:
So at a shade over 55k you have Audi R8 v10, 997 turbo, a newish Nissan GTR, a Ferrari 360, a couple of year old jaguar F-type of various engines... a number of lotuses... If its 70k plus then you have even more choice and Gallardos, R8 v10 spider, V12 Astons, the very cheapest F430 etc move onto the playing field.. in addition to which all of the later effectively won't depreciate...
Ok but setting the budget at £75K, what new cars would it be in competition with? V6Pushfit said:
Ok but setting the budget at £75K, what new cars would it be in competition with?
In terms of non mass produced stuff of similar weight and type it's only really Lotus and Morgan?Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
DonkeyApple said:
In terms of non mass produced stuff of similar weight and type it's only really Lotus and Morgan?
Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
Unfortunately that's changed too... the Gallardo is pretty decent, very responsive, nimble, add an aftermarket exhaust it gives you rip snorting noise, and there you have a tvr experience with out the hassle. Especially in the convertible. Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
Which shows what ever they produce needs to be totally unique in the market place and it needs to make people want one. Over that set of cars mentioned, for the majority of people...it's a tough sell.
m4tti said:
Unfortunately that's changed too... the Gallardo is pretty decent, very responsive, nimble, add an aftermarket exhaust it gives you rip snorting noise, and there you have a tvr experience with out the hassle. Especially in the convertible.
Which shows what ever they produce needs to be totally unique in the market place and it needs to make people want one. Over that set of cars mentioned, for the majority of people...it's a tough sell.
The Gallardo is still £100K+? Which shows what ever they produce needs to be totally unique in the market place and it needs to make people want one. Over that set of cars mentioned, for the majority of people...it's a tough sell.
V6Pushfit said:
The Gallardo is still £100K+?
Not used it isn't. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l...
m4tti said:
V6Pushfit said:
The Gallardo is still £100K+?
Not used it isn't. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l...
m4tti said:
DonkeyApple said:
In terms of non mass produced stuff of similar weight and type it's only really Lotus and Morgan?
Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
Unfortunately that's changed too... the Gallardo is pretty decent, very responsive, nimble, add an aftermarket exhaust it gives you rip snorting noise, and there you have a tvr experience with out the hassle. Especially in the convertible. Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
Which shows what ever they produce needs to be totally unique in the market place and it needs to make people want one. Over that set of cars mentioned, for the majority of people...it's a tough sell.
The trouble is that you are spot on, it will be a very tough sell as the vast majority of sports car buyers are badge focussed as a priority.
DonkeyApple said:
m4tti said:
DonkeyApple said:
In terms of non mass produced stuff of similar weight and type it's only really Lotus and Morgan?
Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
Unfortunately that's changed too... the Gallardo is pretty decent, very responsive, nimble, add an aftermarket exhaust it gives you rip snorting noise, and there you have a tvr experience with out the hassle. Especially in the convertible. Lots of competition from used stuff from golf club car parks but none of those mass produced cars are really in the same niche as TVRs other than for people who wanted them in the first place but couldn't afford them so bought a Tiv. For people who just want a car like a TVR there really isn't any comparison to the generic stuff.
Which shows what ever they produce needs to be totally unique in the market place and it needs to make people want one. Over that set of cars mentioned, for the majority of people...it's a tough sell.
The trouble is that you are spot on, it will be a very tough sell as the vast majority of sports car buyers are badge focussed as a priority.
Would I buy a crate engine in a new TVR .... Not a very interesting engine is it? Perhaps once its been changed by ricardo it might be interesting. If it had a flat plane of a voodoo it'd be a much more interesting engine. I bet that engine is quite distinctive in character
Other possible rough alternatives based on cost/performance from May '16 Top Gear magazine (I dont know about cost of Options, which could push price up a lot), which was always a large part of how Tvr portrayed/marketed itself;-
Cars below offer a combination of both performance & ability to munch the miles;-
Tesla 70D - £60k, 0-62mph @ 5.2 secs
Tesla 90D - £96k, 0-62 @ 2.8 secs
Porsche Panamera 4.8 v8 - £93k, 0-62 @ 4.5 secs
Porsche 911 3.0T Carrara S - £86k, 0-62 @ 4.3 secs
Porsche Cayman GT4 - £65k, 0-62 @ 4.4 secs
Mercedes SL400 AMG L V6 - £73k, 0-62 @ 4.9 secs
Masarati Granturismo 4.7 460 Sport - £90k, 0-62 @ 4.8 secs
Lotus Evora 400 - - £73k, 0-62 @ 4.2 secs
Corvette Stingray 6.2 v8 - £70k, 0-62 @ <4.0 secs
Audi RS6 - £79k, 0-62@ 3.9 secs
Tvr need to be able to tempt people into their cars from other established makes. Lotus proved for years that a loyal (but small) fanbase wasnt enough,& what attempting to do too much with limited resources will lead to, but Lotus do also have successes, the lessons of which can be learned.
The 'magic/recipe' the Griffith/Chimera originally provided (looks/performance/usability/reputation of a powerful car), which boosted Tvr sales has to be reinvented somehow.
Tvr need a new USP, to unlock buyers cash, but have they found it yet as current proposed car details remain too sketchy? Potential buyers need more product confidence I'd say, so the Tvr PR Dept needs to work harder on what the new Tvr USP is.
Whatever is created, I hope it will leave people as amazed/happy as when the Griffith was first unveiled.
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