RE: Exclusive: The Wheeler Interview
Discussion
BillyTT said:
I seriously considered buying a Tamora but untimately concluded that you simply cannot responsibly drive such a car on the road with no active safety kit.
Sorry, but IMO thats a load of cr@p.
I drive my cars responsibly and my spotless driving record over 14 years (touch wood) supports this. My cars have never been fitted with anything more than seatbelts.
Also I noticed no one has commented on my previous post concerning the fact even though such safety devices have increased in number, the number of fatalities and serious injuries on our roads has increased. They really dont seem to make that much difference on the whole, unlike seatbelts for example, which were a major improvement in safety.
If you're so worried about safety why bother buying a powerful car at all?????????? Just stick to the TT instead
, or get a bus. >> Edited by jam1et on Wednesday 21st April 17:50
Interesting thread -
To me, PW's comments are pure salesmanship excuses - they can't afford to develop airbags, add ABS etc. so they don't - fair enough and I don't have a problem with that. It would have been more honest of PW to have just said that - rather than come out with his unique (and let's face it, pretty isolated view within the world of car safety) view of safety features.
I appreciate everyone has stories of shunts where their TVR didn't suffer much and the other metal bodied car did, and would seek to offer this as 'evidence' that there is some truth in PW's arguments. I also have experienced crashes where my car was relatively undamaged with the other a write off, the only differece being my car was also a standard metal bodied saloon. My point being, that I can't explain (any more than you can,in my opinion) why my car was almost unmarked and the offending car was almost a write off. Not anything do to with the material chosen for construction - that much is obvious.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying TVR's are dangerous, but to pretend that they are safer without proper protection and driver aids (I really like the 'reason' about not fitting airbags in convertibles!!!!) is simply to accept a manufactures spin - sorry PW, I don't buy it (but I still might buy one of your products).
All IMHO of course!
To me, PW's comments are pure salesmanship excuses - they can't afford to develop airbags, add ABS etc. so they don't - fair enough and I don't have a problem with that. It would have been more honest of PW to have just said that - rather than come out with his unique (and let's face it, pretty isolated view within the world of car safety) view of safety features.
I appreciate everyone has stories of shunts where their TVR didn't suffer much and the other metal bodied car did, and would seek to offer this as 'evidence' that there is some truth in PW's arguments. I also have experienced crashes where my car was relatively undamaged with the other a write off, the only differece being my car was also a standard metal bodied saloon. My point being, that I can't explain (any more than you can,in my opinion) why my car was almost unmarked and the offending car was almost a write off. Not anything do to with the material chosen for construction - that much is obvious.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying TVR's are dangerous, but to pretend that they are safer without proper protection and driver aids (I really like the 'reason' about not fitting airbags in convertibles!!!!) is simply to accept a manufactures spin - sorry PW, I don't buy it (but I still might buy one of your products).
All IMHO of course!
jam1et said:
Sorry, but IMO thats a load of cr@p.
Nah, dont agree pal.
its great that you have 14 years of untroubled driving. But that is not the issue. Because one day that unblemished record might come to a end on a wet lane on a dark night.
And in such circumstances, the fact remains that you are better off with ABS so that you can control the car , steering and braking in an emergency.
I think that in this day and age is not justifiable to offer a high performance, sub 5 sec 0-60 car, without at least the option of ABS . The technology exists to offer ABS that does not intrude on feel or stopping time ( Lotus and Porsche prove this ) . Not fitting it is just impossible to justify IMO.
You will not find an ABS equipped car owner saying " I wish my car did NOT have ABS !!"
But you may find plenty of non ABS drivers saying " Maybe if I had ABS I would have steered around that obstacle and avoided an accident, but I just lost it "...
Seems simple to me.
And imagine, if Trevors had ABS they'd be much easier to resell and residuals would be higher !
jam1et said:
Sorry to hark on, but if it makes so much difference why has there been no significant effect on the statistics?
this is an old one.
dunno the answer though. usual answer given I believe is that serious injuries are reduced, even though fatalities have remained contant for years and years, stuff like airbags and abs have meant less folk are brain damaged/in wheel chairs than without them.
i.e. abs/air bags might not make the difference between life and death that many times, and the increased safety people feel means they drive a bit quicker and push it up again.
But it does make the difference between putting the kid you hit into a wheel chair or not. Or brain damaging yourself or not.
?
stu
jam1et said:
Sorry to hark on, but if it makes so much difference why has there been no significant effect on the statistics?
With more and more youngsters driving around in paper-weight hot hatches that rip apart in an instant, the death toll will increase... remember, back in the good days gone, driving and owning a car was expensive for the average youngster, choppers/grifters ring a bell? Cars were built like rock, the driver wasnt worried, it was the pedestrians that were looking over their shoulders!
All this thing about the hole in the front cant be bigger than a baby sized head, and a crap load of more over-the-top safety things is just taking the piss, (how often do you get a baby walking along the road????? and even if he was, do you think he/she would survive at speeds anything over 20mph) styling on cars is soooo limited due to all of this... but real driving aids doo help, its proven, its fact! But in reality, theres a lot more lunatics with hot hatches on the roads either crashing themselves or being the cause of the typical commuter loosing it in his grand saloon (the poor sod was just on another day to his job just like any other day for the past 10 years, down the same damn road where he knows every nook and cranny like the back of his hand). Dont even count the statistics on how many 'school run' drivers either cause or are an accident themselves!
Its time the government got clued up foreal on what the real issues are, rather than trying to be clever and plug away with stupid rules that dont have a shred of statistics to prove them right and not forgetting the famous over-zealous use of road cameras in the most peculiar of places, our country roads will no longer be enjoyable....
Phew...
Off for my daily ride... actually its raining... damn it... wont risk it... wait till it gets a little dryer... (sound familiar????)
chaparral said:
I own a car with ABS. I wish I didn't have it. It really does stretch out my stopping distances, and it prevents me from stopping in any decent distance on anything other than dry pavement - in the snow, I'm better off using the goddamn handbrake than the ABS brakes.
Like stated in the other thread, not all ABS's are the same... for a car of this calibre, you'd expect a highly tuned race-spec setup! Cheap as chips rodney?
sandman said:
About 4 years ago I had an accident in my TVR Chimaera - some bloke in a 3 series BMW with 4 passengers was amber gambling and basically went through a red light. Hit my car on the driver's side just behind the seat at some speed, and spun my car right round. Thinking back to the accident I remember the body of the car flexing and absorbing the force of the impact. I was completely unharmed. Damage on my car was £1700 worth of work. However the damage to the BMW was well in excess of £3000!!! I remember opening up his bonnet and seeing the engine completely misplaced, hanging down on one side. I was very impressed with the way the Chimp handled the crash!!!
Its amazing, but in general, the car that collides with you is more likely to be heavily damaged compared to your car, unless you both collided into each other, I'm sure I saw that theory proven on some documentary a while ago. Glass fibre on direct collision under its control will be a nasty surprise... god forbid it, but if it happens to you, and you're on here talking about it, you are one hell of a lucky soul! Too bad quite a few tiv drivers werent so lucky especially in the past 10 years.
For those of you who claim your car would have stopped sooner w/o ABS, how would you know? Unless you could duplicate your predicament in those same conditions, but this time w/o ABS, you simply wouldn't know.
Removing the variables, here are the results of that Road & Track test. All results were generated by the same car: a Mercedes with a switch to defeat the ABS.
Here's another example of ABS showing its effectiveness. This is from a Motor Trend comparison in 2000. Notice how the ostensibly more driver-oriented sports cars, the Viper ACR and Shelby Series 1, trail the pack of cars equipped with ABS.
And that's the best they've ever done with a non-ABS Viper. Previously, they'd gotten as high as 129' on a standard GTS.
Fast-forward 3 years. See how the new generation Viper, with ABS, is leagues ahead of its predecessor. Beating even the much lighter Mosler which was shod with much stickier Hoosier race-type tires.
Here's a comparison where the variable of tires is eliminated. The Saleen S7 and Lamborghini Murcielago are on the same tires, same compounds, same sizes. The Lambo's test weight is some 37% higher than the S7's. The Saleen has the clear advantage in swept area per ton. Yet the Lamborghini outbrakes the S7 when tested by the same driver, on the same day, under identical conditions. By some 4-5 carlengths from 100 mph.
There's no doubt the Lambo benefitted greatly from VW/Audi's generous coffers. But there's no denying that ABS helped it immensely in this case.
Back to TVR's, I do think the addition of driver's aids will "dilute" the core market and drive up prices through development costs and increased demand. But that doesn't mean ABS increases braking distances, as suggested by Mr. Wheeler. The published data indicates quite the opposite (when cars of relatively similar weights are concerned). And surely, if the teams in what's regarded as the top form of road motorsport wanted these driver's aids (to what end? more control at the limit and thus quicker lap times), which were subsequently banned, we can only assume they would improve a vehicle's performance. Not hinder it.
Oh yeah, some of the FIA GT cars had airbags. The Mercedes CLK-GTR/CLR for sure. Don't recall Peter Dumbreck having anything bad to say about them after his somersaults into the French countryside a few years ago.
Removing the variables, here are the results of that Road & Track test. All results were generated by the same car: a Mercedes with a switch to defeat the ABS.
Here's another example of ABS showing its effectiveness. This is from a Motor Trend comparison in 2000. Notice how the ostensibly more driver-oriented sports cars, the Viper ACR and Shelby Series 1, trail the pack of cars equipped with ABS.
And that's the best they've ever done with a non-ABS Viper. Previously, they'd gotten as high as 129' on a standard GTS.
Fast-forward 3 years. See how the new generation Viper, with ABS, is leagues ahead of its predecessor. Beating even the much lighter Mosler which was shod with much stickier Hoosier race-type tires.
Here's a comparison where the variable of tires is eliminated. The Saleen S7 and Lamborghini Murcielago are on the same tires, same compounds, same sizes. The Lambo's test weight is some 37% higher than the S7's. The Saleen has the clear advantage in swept area per ton. Yet the Lamborghini outbrakes the S7 when tested by the same driver, on the same day, under identical conditions. By some 4-5 carlengths from 100 mph.
There's no doubt the Lambo benefitted greatly from VW/Audi's generous coffers. But there's no denying that ABS helped it immensely in this case.
Back to TVR's, I do think the addition of driver's aids will "dilute" the core market and drive up prices through development costs and increased demand. But that doesn't mean ABS increases braking distances, as suggested by Mr. Wheeler. The published data indicates quite the opposite (when cars of relatively similar weights are concerned). And surely, if the teams in what's regarded as the top form of road motorsport wanted these driver's aids (to what end? more control at the limit and thus quicker lap times), which were subsequently banned, we can only assume they would improve a vehicle's performance. Not hinder it.
Oh yeah, some of the FIA GT cars had airbags. The Mercedes CLK-GTR/CLR for sure. Don't recall Peter Dumbreck having anything bad to say about them after his somersaults into the French countryside a few years ago.
chaparral said:
I own a car with ABS. I wish I didn't have it. It really does stretch out my stopping distances, and it prevents me from stopping in any decent distance on anything other than dry pavement - in the snow, I'm better off using the goddamn handbrake than the ABS brakes.
as another poster said, not all are equal.
the system in my 300ZX is a bit pants. very pulsy, slow, and in snow, etc very crap.
The system in my mundaeo v6 thang is excellent, great stopping and control in all conditions (including snow), and the TC works wonders in snow too. brings a smile to my face everytime it snows now.. until I got it, I would not have believed the handing of a car in snow could be so good.
stu
103 child pedestrians were killed in 2000 (not all by cars inccidently). ABS may have saved some but certainly not all (increased road awareness for children would probably save far more). How far down this road do we go? Whats an 'acceptable' level of casualties, none?, well thats just not realistic unless we remove all transport from our roads! Its all about 'acceptable' levels of risk - for car users and pedestrians alike.
I hope manufacturers are not forced into providing them as an option, or that it becomes law to have them fitted. Where will it all end? Will every car have to be fitted with EBD, electronic damping, ABS, SIPS, Airbags,etc,etc,etc. How about limited top speed or acceleration? Seatbelts I agree with because they are a cheap, basic form of protection which have been proven to save a huge numbers of lives, ABS hasnt.
I dont want to live in a nanny state thank you, its bad enough already.
Also, if anyone thinks it is a good idea to have all these safety devices it may be wise to read this first, which highlights various concerns:
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/tribsouthwest/news/s_168154.html
>> Edited by jam1et on Thursday 22 April 15:05
I hope manufacturers are not forced into providing them as an option, or that it becomes law to have them fitted. Where will it all end? Will every car have to be fitted with EBD, electronic damping, ABS, SIPS, Airbags,etc,etc,etc. How about limited top speed or acceleration? Seatbelts I agree with because they are a cheap, basic form of protection which have been proven to save a huge numbers of lives, ABS hasnt.
I dont want to live in a nanny state thank you, its bad enough already.
Also, if anyone thinks it is a good idea to have all these safety devices it may be wise to read this first, which highlights various concerns:
www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/tribsouthwest/news/s_168154.html
>> Edited by jam1et on Thursday 22 April 15:05
I'm not sure about the arguments for or against ABS or TC, but having them as an option seems sensible, if that's technically possible..
As for airbags though, the link provided by jam1et is an interesting read, and does raise some serious concerns. However, as far as I understand it, PW contends that they should not be fitted because a person might have a more serious outcome if he rolled a car.
IMHO this is not a credible argument. It reminds me of what some people said years ago about not wearing a seatbelt, i.e. 'I want to be able to get out if I have an accident, not be trapped in the car'. I didn't find that convincing either, nor did Government, hence it is now law. Given that in rare circumstances you might find yourself trapped by your seatbelt, is that sufficient reason not to wear it? I don't think so, and nor is PWs suggestion a good enough reason not to fit airbags, IMO.
But if PW is right, then it could be argued that other manufacturers of convertibles like BMW and Mercedes are wrong to fit airbags. If this is the case, they'd better get ready for the law suits which must inevitably follow, especially in the US, I'd have thought. Is he suggesting that other large car companies haven't thought of this? (cont...)
As for airbags though, the link provided by jam1et is an interesting read, and does raise some serious concerns. However, as far as I understand it, PW contends that they should not be fitted because a person might have a more serious outcome if he rolled a car.
IMHO this is not a credible argument. It reminds me of what some people said years ago about not wearing a seatbelt, i.e. 'I want to be able to get out if I have an accident, not be trapped in the car'. I didn't find that convincing either, nor did Government, hence it is now law. Given that in rare circumstances you might find yourself trapped by your seatbelt, is that sufficient reason not to wear it? I don't think so, and nor is PWs suggestion a good enough reason not to fit airbags, IMO.
But if PW is right, then it could be argued that other manufacturers of convertibles like BMW and Mercedes are wrong to fit airbags. If this is the case, they'd better get ready for the law suits which must inevitably follow, especially in the US, I'd have thought. Is he suggesting that other large car companies haven't thought of this? (cont...)
I wrote off my TVR in 99 after meeting someone who was driving on the wrong side of the road, so perhaps I'm biased. Or maybe it's the steering-wheel-centre shaped scar on my forehead (described by a Dr as like crazy paving, and yes, I was wearing a seatbelt), the permanent brain injury, or the partial loss of sight. Or it could be the fracture to my neck, or my broken back, my consequential inability to walk unaided 4 years later, or the constant pain. Or it could just be the internal injuries. Yes, perhaps I am biased.
When I bought my TVR in 91 airbags weren't an issue, and, of course, I can't say how much they might have made a difference. What if? doesn't help. But I have to make a decision on what safety features I want in my next car, and I won't be buying a TVR.
To those of you who love them, good luck. I hope what has happened to me never happens to you. But if it does, it'll be too late to wish you had an airbag.
Man that sounds terrible. What happened? If you dont mind me asking.
This is one of the reasons I'm always considering second thoughts for normal road use, and jump into my 3000GT instead.
I normally take my baby brothers out with me, and they love the TVR, but the mother is always pointing out, "didnt you say the car was made out of stiff cardboard or something, and those front seat are very close to the back seat...".
I would hate to think how someones head would survive banging against the front seats... scary thoughts, it can happen to any of us. Only when it does will we be sorry.
Pre-emptive actions are far better than fearing the worst, dont you agree?
Does anyone know of any aftermarket Airbag/SIB installers?
This is one of the reasons I'm always considering second thoughts for normal road use, and jump into my 3000GT instead.
I normally take my baby brothers out with me, and they love the TVR, but the mother is always pointing out, "didnt you say the car was made out of stiff cardboard or something, and those front seat are very close to the back seat...".
I would hate to think how someones head would survive banging against the front seats... scary thoughts, it can happen to any of us. Only when it does will we be sorry.
Pre-emptive actions are far better than fearing the worst, dont you agree?
Does anyone know of any aftermarket Airbag/SIB installers?
Its ok him banging on about airbags and abs - what about reliability? I sent him around twenty emails trying to get him to personally guarantee the reliability of his cars before I bought one. If the guy who builds them cannont back them - stay well clear! Can you just imagine . . they cannot build a reliable car - so abs and airbags would slaughter them - they'd kill all their customers!
Whats the old saying? "never trust a car with capri door handles!"
Whats the old saying? "never trust a car with capri door handles!"
ducati said:
Its ok him banging on about airbags and abs - what about reliability? I sent him around twenty emails trying to get him to personally guarantee the reliability of his cars before I bought one. If the guy who builds them cannont back them - stay well clear! "
Peter wheeler has PR people, with a company that size i wouldn't expect the chairman to answer emails unless he knows you.
Tim
Mine has been in my posession almost 10 years - has Capri door handles - and has let me down once. Shorting HT leads in 1999, the originals as supplied with the car in May 1990. I put new ones on, and off we went.
Would you email the MD of Lotus, Porsche Ferrari and expect a reply guaranteeing the reliability of the cars? I didn't think so. What about Ford or BMW or Renault - I suspect not there either.
Get back on the bike and stop moaning - my neighbour has a Ducati, not exactly the last word in reliability, doesn't stop me wanting one :-)
Enjoy!
Would you email the MD of Lotus, Porsche Ferrari and expect a reply guaranteeing the reliability of the cars? I didn't think so. What about Ford or BMW or Renault - I suspect not there either.
Get back on the bike and stop moaning - my neighbour has a Ducati, not exactly the last word in reliability, doesn't stop me wanting one :-)
Enjoy!
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