New TVR still under wraps!

[dvs_dave]

m4tti said:

Begs the question why invest in cosworth when you can buy something off the shelf that's had a significantly higher development budget.

Because crate engines are usually not actually road legal as they don't meet emissions for one. Ok for a racer or a DIY engine swap, but not possible for a manufacturer to implement.

That's why Cosworth are involved. They're charged with getting more juice and drama from the core engine, but still keeping it legal and emissions compliant.

[SHARKBITEATTACK]

I'm not really sure how cosworth is going to improve performance much further. Perhaps with direct injection and a dry sump lubrication system.

http://www.enginelabs.com/features/pri-coverage/pr...

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it gets the GT350 engine with the flat plane crank. That would make Peter wheeler happy and it wouldn't have the typical V8 exhaust note like all other American lumps have.

Edited by SHARKBITEATTACK on Friday 13th May 19:37

[DonkeyApple]

m4tti said:

DonkeyApple said:

I don't think so. At the expected price bracket they wouldn't be selling anything with a Ford badge on it. It does need the overlay of a brand like Cosworth to get over the crate engine stigma.

£80k+ for something powered by the same engine found in the £30k Mustang and a pick up truck? Or an engine from one of the most legendary British firms with serious F1 and racing pedigree?

20 years ago people turned their nose up at the Rover unit in mere £25k dragon slayers. I'd hazard that at £80k+ the right badge on the engine is the most vital ingredient after getting the body shape to look £100k+

Plllllllease... DA I'm disappointed in you.. to make suggestions that the cosworth brand will differentiate this in some way. Unless your a formula 1 historian you'll remember cosworth as predominantly being an escort, or a sapphire. Most recently before the Renaissance driven by folk that wear caps backwards in shiny bomber jackets.

So not the holy grail of positioning over ford racing in any way..

I think it's worth considering what the average age is of the typical purchaser of near £100k cars is in the UK currently.

Unlike the turn of the century when a tech boom and a banking boom was putting huge disposable income into the hands of the under 40s and property was affordable, today the main demographic that has that kind of money to burn are the Boomers and mostly the ones in the South East. They won't be rushing to buy into the Ford brand at that price level and the Cosworth brand has meaning. The branding has to stand a chance of stacking up against the competition and a simple blue oval doesn't stand any chance at all in achieving that.

I reckon the majority of cars sold will have just crate Ford units in them but the importance will be that there'll be a Cosworth option and this'll be what the media talks about and promotes.

[fatbutt]

dvs_dave said:

Because crate engines are usually not actually road legal as they don't meet emissions for one. Ok for a racer or a DIY engine swap, but not possible for a manufacturer to implement.

That's why Cosworth are involved. They're charged with getting more juice and drama from the core engine, but still keeping it legal and emissions compliant.

Both Ford and Chevy crate engines are sold emissions compliant. I bought an LS3 and it came with everything necessary.

EDIT: Just checked, you're right. Ford no longer offer the Coyote emissions compliant pack. They did back on 2013, no idea why they don't now. Chevy's E-rod is still available though and that's compliant.

I'd say that Cosworth are tuning and refining for the characteristics Les wants. US engines are tuned for the really poor quality US petrol plus tighter emissions compliance and have lots of spare capacity all over that can be easily exploited. Bolt-on performance mods are easily available over there but generally they aren't designed for long term use i.e. tend to damage the engine or themselves after prolonged use. Its why Roush, etc. sell upgrades that are a lot more expensive than simply buying a supercharger through the Summit website.

For me, its the right way to do it and I've nothing bad to say about TVR's current plan. I'm really enjoying TVR's rebirth so far.

Edited by fatbutt on Friday 13th May 13:01

[HarryW]

Assuming you can live with the Blue oval badge You can always get the Cobra Jet version; supercharged and around 1000bhp https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-SCJ1...

[Byker28i]

HarryW said:

Assuming you can live with the Blue oval badge You can always get the Cobra Jet version; supercharged and around 1000bhp https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-SCJ1...

Oh like. £25k for a brand new bolt in 1000BHP, thats some cheap performance there

[HarryW]

Byker28i said:

HarryW said:

Assuming you can live with the Blue oval badge You can always get the Cobra Jet version; supercharged and around 1000bhp https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-SCJ1...

Oh like. £25k for a brand new bolt in 1000BHP, thats some cheap performance there

To be honest, if the new LE is over priced and the boggo car comes with a virtual standard Coyote at £20k less I will plump for that as off the shelf upgrades are cheap as chips.

[Byker28i]

HarryW said:

Byker28i said:

HarryW said:

Assuming you can live with the Blue oval badge You can always get the Cobra Jet version; supercharged and around 1000bhp https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-SCJ1...

Oh like. £25k for a brand new bolt in 1000BHP, thats some cheap performance there

To be honest, if the new LE is over priced and the boggo car comes with a virtual standard Coyote at £20k less I will plump for that as off the shelf upgrades are cheap as chips.

Thats not a bad shout and a possible approach for future models.
Base model gets non carbon fibre chassis as well.
On the one hand the LE is a limited run, so may be desirable at a later stage in standard condition, on the other hand, I'm thinking of the modified one off Boss Cerbera, so perhaps a one off LE with this engine?

[cindydog3]

Have been following all the speculation and ballyhoo surrounding the much anticipated new TVR, and as a current Griff owner I must assume that with Gordon Murray and Cosworth on board it will really turn out to be as spectactular as especially those who have placed deposits will hope. I really hope it "cuts the mustard."

Does remind though of the advent of De Lorean in these parts back in the day. Ok, we knew what it was going to look like in advance of production and with Colin Chapman involved road holding should not have been an issue.

Designed for the emmissions controlled US market performance was going to be questionable, especially with the Renault V6 on board.

The latter turned out to be confirmed when amongst teams of drivers from local motor clubs who took both an auto and manual out for 4 hr stints, to from memory rack up 50/60k miles each to ascertain reliability, I was so disappointed. Road holding by 80's standards was not an issue.

At the end of the day the best cars to come out of the Belfast Plant,in my opinion, were the 2 Alpine Renault A310's which had been used for comparison purposes.

[DonkeyApple]

I did get the impression that this was the plan. The car that is to be marketed will be the carbon fibre, Cosworth engined, high cost one. While the car that is mostly sold will be the composite, ford engined one. It would seem extremely logical for them to do that. What will be interesting is whether they choose to lock out the electronics some how so as to force owners of the base ford engine to buy the upgrades through them? It would seem a bit punchy but frankly, old TVR haemorrhaged millions by ignoring the massive post sale upgrade spending that TVRs have and they will need that important revenue. Plus, factory approved bolt ons will not decimate the used value of the cars like random, client driven ones do and protecting the used values is going to be important.

[HarryW]

DonkeyApple said:

I did get the impression that this was the plan. The car that is to be marketed will be the carbon fibre, Cosworth engined, high cost one. While the car that is mostly sold will be the composite, ford engined one. It would seem extremely logical for them to do that. What will be interesting is whether they choose to lock out the electronics some how so as to force owners of the base ford engine to buy the upgrades through them? It would seem a bit punchy but frankly, old TVR haemorrhaged millions by ignoring the massive post sale upgrade spending that TVRs have and they will need that important revenue. Plus, factory approved bolt ons will not decimate the used value of the cars like random, client driven ones do and protecting the used values is going to be important.

Whereas I think (guess!) that the structure panels for all the car variants will be carbon. They will be using recycled 'virgin' carbon which is not expensive as it uses off cuts from other prime users such as wind turbine manufacture. I'd be surprised if theyput together a second production line with associated costs in glass panels. Also the base engine will still have the Cosworth treatment, mapping, dry sump etc but will still be a base Coyote internally with maybe a lightened flywheel.
No software is able to be fully protected, besides you will probably be able to reflash the source mapping from ford over the top, overwriting if you like.
Pricing wise I think they still need to be very careful with the LE. The TVR base market today is still very much blue collar, like Ford muscle, the boys done good! They are not Aston Martin and never will be, TVR produces fast affordable sports cars that undercut the likes of Porsche. In today's market the nearest direct competition is the Cayman GT4.
They have a 10 year plan, trying to recoupe all the NREs in the early years could mean they don't make year 5 let alone year 10. Given the £30m grant I suspect the personal exposure has all but gone away anyway so long as they bring the first cars to market manufactured in Wales. The recent trying to talk up the prices now, under £100k! could be seen as a lack of confidence in their own product in the long term in that they are trying to recoupe the money now. That approach could be completely counter productive and not what you want on your relaunch. The original estimate was £55-75k, with the LE loaded with freebies for those showing the faith in backing them back into the market with deposits. The base at £65k is already at the Cayman GT4 level, I fear for the relaunch tbh.

[Byker28i]

Oh lets keep this thread positive, there's already enough naysayers on the other
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

and as I wrote on there...

And it's exciting. When they come out, god I hope they are good, certainly all the indications so far are very positive, but the motoring press will go nuts. 'TVR's rebirth, look at what they've done. If only they'd done this before imagine what cars we could have had' type of thing.

The very wave of British Motoring feelgood factor.

Now imagine owning one of those cars as all this is happening and the knockon effect to current owners.

Ok so my glass isn't just half full, it's positively overflowing.

[HarryW]

Byker28i said:

Oh lets keep this thread positive, there's already enough naysayers on the other
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

and as I wrote on there...

And it's exciting. When they come out, god I hope they are good, certainly all the indications so far are very positive, but the motoring press will go nuts. 'TVR's rebirth, look at what they've done. If only they'd done this before imagine what cars we could have had' type of thing.

The very wave of British Motoring feelgood factor.

Now imagine owning one of those cars as all this is happening and the knockon effect to current owners.

Ok so my glass isn't just half full, it's positively overflowing.

Don't get me wrong, I am with you on the excitement front, I just fear they might try and push the initial launch into a segment traditionally they didn't occupy. I have no qualms they might evolve into that once reestablished but you have to walk before you run, hence the reference to a longer approach to recouping the NREs shows faith in your plan.

[DonkeyApple]

HarryW said:

Whereas I think (guess!) that the structure panels for all the car variants will be carbon. They will be using recycled 'virgin' carbon which is not expensive as it uses off cuts from other prime users such as wind turbine manufacture. I'd be surprised if theyput together a second production line with associated costs in glass panels. Also the base engine will still have the Cosworth treatment, mapping, dry sump etc but will still be a base Coyote internally with maybe a lightened flywheel.
No software is able to be fully protected, besides you will probably be able to reflash the source mapping from ford over the top, overwriting if you like.
Pricing wise I think they still need to be very careful with the LE. The TVR base market today is still very much blue collar, like Ford muscle, the boys done good! They are not Aston Martin and never will be, TVR produces fast affordable sports cars that undercut the likes of Porsche. In today's market the nearest direct competition is the Cayman GT4.
They have a 10 year plan, trying to recoupe all the NREs in the early years could mean they don't make year 5 let alone year 10. Given the £30m grant I suspect the personal exposure has all but gone away anyway so long as they bring the first cars to market manufactured in Wales. The recent trying to talk up the prices now, under £100k! could be seen as a lack of confidence in their own product in the long term in that they are trying to recoupe the money now. That approach could be completely counter productive and not what you want on your relaunch. The original estimate was £55-75k, with the LE loaded with freebies for those showing the faith in backing them back into the market with deposits. The base at £65k is already at the Cayman GT4 level, I fear for the relaunch tbh.

I think you are generally right. But I do remember the mid 90 and all the way through the Griff production that London was full of Griffs and Chimps owned by 'boys born good' so there is precedent. At the prices they have no option but to operate at the positioning of the brand and the new product is the make of break. They have to deliver a product that an early retiree from a professional career, living in the South East would like to buy. A Morgan for those who haven't given up and decided to spend the next 20 years touring National Trust events and going committees.

At the same time, they must remember that it was the arrival of electric roofs and automatic gearboxes that caused almost every older TVR owner in the 90s to jump ship.

There's no business in the UK for making expensive products for the under 40s as they have no money so they've got to make a product that is basically for people who are over 50 but as the kids leave want something more dramatic and a bit more of a statement than the usual sports car.

[leerdam23]

I hope Cosworth do almost nothing to make more power, I really hope they develop the implementation of the engine, gearbox, drive train, exhaust, heat management, cooling, emissions, reliability etc and all the really difficult stuff, not just pub horse power willy waving for the insecure...

(which includes me)

[HarryW]

To make the headlines and grab the attention it needs to make at least 500bhp. To meet their power to weight target of 400bhp/tonne and it comes in at the top estimate weight of 1250kgs funnily enough it needs 500bhp. It will have 500bhp minimum.

[Silvernoble883]

I bought a new Griffith 500 in 1995 and it was far quicker and better looking than anything Porsche, Ferrari sold at twice the price, can Tvr do that today.

I don't know.

[drlloyd]

leerdam23 said:

I hope Cosworth do almost nothing to make more power, I really hope they develop the implementation of the engine, gearbox, drive train, exhaust, heat management, cooling, emissions, reliability etc and all the really difficult stuff, not just pub horse power willy waving for the insecure...

(which includes me)

Absolutely right - making lots of power from the engine will be easy, it's everything else that is difficult.

[bad company]

Silvernoble883 said:

I bought a new Griffith 500 in 1995 and it was far quicker and better looking than anything Porsche, Ferrari sold at twice the price, can Tvr do that today.

I don't know.

Neither do I which is why I haven't put down a deposit.

[shirt]

leerdam23 said:

I hope Cosworth do almost nothing to make more power, I really hope they develop the implementation of the engine, gearbox, drive train, exhaust, heat management, cooling, emissions, reliability etc and all the really difficult stuff, not just pub horse power willy waving for the insecure...

(which includes me)

I think if they wanted a proper job doing to the entire driveline they would have approached Ricardo. However even your average enthusIast has probably never heard of them. Given that singer used them for minute production runs, perhaps cosworth are a lot cheaper to work with than we might think.