RE: Exclusive: The Wheeler Interview

[lynnj]

I agree entirely with Peter Wheelers safety statements.

I recently crashed my tuscan @ 55mph, spinning it through a hedge, a fence, a gate, down a bank, through a steel gate and gatepost, then into a ditch the other side of the road.

The car was entirely written off, with just about all panels, wheels and engine destroyed - however the cockpit of the car was completely untouched. Apart from the glass you could have sat in there and thought no accident had even occured. Pretty amazing if you ask me.

The policeman even said to me "lucky you were in a car like this and not a metal bodied car".

[bennno]

lynnj said:

I agree entirely with Peter Wheelers safety statements. I recently crashed my tuscan @ 55mph, spinning it through a hedge, a fence, a gate, down a bank, through a steel gate and gatepost, then into a ditch the other side of the road. The car was entirely written off, with just about all panels, wheels and engine destroyed - however the cockpit of the car was completely untouched. Apart from the glass you could have sat in there and thought no accident had even occured. Pretty amazing if you ask me. The policeman even said to me "lucky you were in a car like this and not a metal bodied car".

surely the point is that with abs, traction control / stability management, proper tyres, predictable handling and a slower steering rack you might just have avoided the spin in the first place.

my first 996 was so suprising, you could cane it, even in the wet and would struggle to break traction. it didnt even have the traction control. My cerb by comparison would light up its rear tyres at any more than 1/3 throttle in the damp

Bennno

>> Edited by bennno on Monday 19th April 21:21

[Guibo]

"On anti-lock brakes Wheeler happily pointed out that a car with anti-lock brakes will always take longer to stop than a car without, as demonstrated by Autocar’s 0-100-0 challenge in previous years."

That's because the quickest stoppers are invariably ultra lightweights or trackday specials.

100-0

Caterham R500 (450kg): 3.44 seconds
Radical SR3 (465): 3.69
Westfield Megabusa (420): 3.82
Pagani C12S* (1250): 4.05
Noble M12 GTO-3R (1080): 4.11
TVR Tuscan (1090): 4.15 w/Toyo Trampios
550 Maranello* (1693): 4.19
Subaru WRX STi* (1470): 4.25
Porsche Turbo* (1540): 4.28
Lotus Elise Sport 135 (780): 4.32
Ford Focus RS* (1278): 4.32
Seat Leon Cupra R* (1376): 4.39
Merc SL55* (1880): 4.37
TVR Tuscan (1120): 4.40
Lambo Murcielago* (1819): 4.41
BMW M5* (1756): 4.46
TVR Tamora (1060): 4.99
AC 212 S/C (900): 5.02

*Cars with ABS


FWIW, R&T did a test of ABS vs non-ABS on a Mercedes equipped with defeatable ABS. They found it stopped significantly shorter in the dry and the wet, against threshold braking and locked-up braking (locked up, the Merc stopped shorter in gravel/snow than w/ABS, however).

[trefor]

Perhaps ABS should be an option (I'm not bothered about airbags and traction control in a car with effectively a full roll cage and energy absorbing GRP like the Cerbera/T350). Then customers can choose whether to pay for ABS at purchase time - say £1,000 on the purchase price. It would be like PAS in it's early days on the Chimaera/Griffith.

Naturally those who choose it also pay a 25kg (or whatever) weight penalty for all the gubbins ABS needs. Not a big deal though - difference between me (skinny twat) and a fat bloke basically.

Now would TVR then put ABS on their press cars? Might save a few trashed demonstrators at launch time due to overconfident journos who can only drive cars with 4WD/traction control

Edited to say that I would choose the ABS equipped model if I had a choice as would most others I suspect. Probably help resale no end too.

>> Edited by trefor on Monday 19th April 21:50

[DanH]

Guibo said:

"On anti-lock brakes Wheeler happily pointed out that a car with anti-lock brakes will always take longer to stop than a car without, as demonstrated by Autocar’s 0-100-0 challenge in previous years." That's because the quickest stoppers are invariably ultra lightweights or trackday specials. 100-0 Caterham R500 (450kg): 3.44 seconds Radical SR3 (465): 3.69 Westfield Megabusa (420): 3.82 Pagani C12S* (1250): 4.05 Noble M12 GTO-3R (1080): 4.11 TVR Tuscan (1090): 4.15 w/Toyo Trampios 550 Maranello* (1693): 4.19 Subaru WRX STi* (1470): 4.25 Porsche Turbo* (1540): 4.28 Lotus Elise Sport 135 (780): 4.32 Ford Focus RS* (1278): 4.32 Seat Leon Cupra R* (1376): 4.39 Merc SL55* (1880): 4.37 TVR Tuscan (1120): 4.40 Lambo Murcielago* (1819): 4.41 BMW M5* (1756): 4.46 TVR Tamora (1060): 4.99 AC 212 S/C (900): 5.02 *Cars with ABS FWIW, R&T did a test of ABS vs non-ABS on a Mercedes equipped with defeatable ABS. They found it stopped significantly shorter in the dry and the wet, against threshold braking and locked-up braking (locked up, the Merc stopped shorter in gravel/snow than w/ABS, however).

That 100-0 test is a bit pointless anyway. Assuming the braking system is powerful enough it then becomes 99% about the tyres. You'll find the winners are on some pretty ridiculous tyres for general road use.

Hell you can shave large amounts of the S2 Elises breaking distance by putting 195s on the front instead of the factory 175s (as per the S1).

To be honest Wheeler sounds like a man who's come up with some justifications after the fact for some of his dubious beliefs. It just shows how out of touch he is with enthusiasts too if he thinks no one wants ABS etc. Make it switchable for the track if necessary, or just do a very good job like Lotus & Porsche, but make it an option.

[PetrolTed]

It is hard to argue against fitting a good ABS system to a car.

Good brakes backed up with an ABS system that doesn't cut in too early would seem preferable. Guess I'm thinking of that Elise again!

[Jimmer]

Just a thought, Audis used to come with switchable ABS (something to do with shorter stopping distances in the snow IIRC). Most cars come with switchable passenger airbags. Why wont TVR (and others eg Noble) fit these safety aids as standard, and have a switch (operated by the ignition key) to turn them off if owners are so confident in their (or the cars) safety without them.
I've often considered a secondhand TVR, but whilst they do not come with ABS/Airbags they do not feature on my want list. Even the "purists" suffer as there must be many people like me who would buy if only there was this safety equipment - more potential purchasers, higher demand, = higher residuals.
I've seen at first hand (my mother)the state of someone in a heavy accident without airbags - not pretty, and very painful.
I would never buy a car without at least a pair of airbags (can you imagine the driver surviving, and the passenger in a mess?)
Come on TVR give your buyers a choice - you might just be surprised at the take up. If you do not move with the times, PW may just have his hand forced by the market (or legislation...)

[HarryW]

PetrolTed said:

It is hard to argue against fitting a good ABS system to a car. Good brakes backed up with an ABS system that doesn't cut in too early would seem preferable. Guess I'm thinking of that Elise again!

I do struggle with this though Ted, check out Johno's post earlier about his experience where on a wet track the Griff and a 400SE out braked Elises by an average of over 10m . Hard to argue about IMHO.
Like most I have ABS in the eurobox and do wish though, I could switch it off, particulary in the snow/light ice.

Harry

[christof]

Ted,

what about a poll about preferring ABS or not to help TVR with a decision on this....???

I would like to have ABS for the German market.


Christof

[jamieheasman]

I think the bottom line here is that no matter what devices you put in a car you are never going to be able to cater for all eventualities. Accidents happen, people lose their lives. It's sad but it's a fact.

Personally I think the absence of driver aids in my TVRs have taught me respect and greater car control. I am aware of just how fast or hard the car is going. Of course this experience transfers from my TVR to my Wife's Mitsubishi VR4, so perhaps in an ideal world we'd have safety devices and plenty of additional driver training.

I think the introduction of driver aids over the last decade or two has seen a reduction in driver skill and ability. A lot of these devices merely allow drivers to go faster without realising how close to the limit they are pushing. There is a whole generation of drivers out there who have replaced experience and ability with electronics. You see it all the time in NZ where Japanese rally/sports cars are ten a penny and 15 year olds can buy them without insurance, then wrap themselves around a tree.

Having said this I wouldn't mind traction control on my car but it would have to be something like the racelogic system that still let me have some fun and let me know when I've pushed too hard. Anyone can go and have this system fitted to their car remember - what's the difference with an extra cost TVR option or going to them directly?

ABS? Well I think ABS systems are getting better and better and if they don't get in the way of my everyday or track day driving then great. Would I have the foresight to steer around an accident? Who knows, but we're back to driver issues/training then aren't we?

Airbags? No thanks. From what I've read they cause as many accidents as they prevent. When was the last time you saw airbags installed in a race car - any race car? I'd rather have a full roll cage, 3/4 point harnesses and hefty side-impact bars or better still a carbon fibre safety cell as in F1! If these features are good enough for professional racing drivers they're good enough for me.

Funny that TVRs get slated for the lack of these 'safety' features and yet Caterhams, Ultimas, Nobles, Westfields, Radicals etc are just praised for their purity. Surely TVR are the middle ground?

I think Peter Wheeler really does believe what he's saying. After all, he drives his own vehicles on a daily basis and has the confidence to race one in his spare time.

[powerlord]

jamieheasman said:

IWhen was the last time you saw airbags installed in a race car - any race car? I'd rather have a full roll cage, 3/4 point harnesses and hefty side-impact bars or better still a carbon fibre safety cell as in F1! If these features are good enough for professional racing drivers they're good enough for me.

if you are racing on a race track, I agree.

Otherwise there seems to me very little similarity between they types of accident you are likely to be involved in on the road, and those on the track.

Roll cages are fitted to race cars, because they tend to roll in accidents... large run off, with the surface grip and kerbs.

Medium/High speed frontal impacts on the track are seldom, yet common on the road... you don't tend to have cars pull out of junctions in front of you on a track, or drive into the back of HGVs...

So I don't think airbags is as clean and shut a case as some make out either.

As I believe, Tom Topper said in his book 'Very advanced Driving', you need to assume everyone else on the road is a complete muppet (paraphrasing here...). That way, you stay alive.

A car manufacturer assumes the same. It is a very dangerous assumption to believe that TVR owners are somehow vastly better drivers generally than other drivers. We all make mistakes.

As a motorcycle rider I know that if I am killed in an accident it is ~70% likely to be totally out of my control and the other partys fault. There are many many car accidents which can be classed similarly and where airbags would prevent serious injury imho. Hell, they are even about ready to launch them on bikes (well dianese helmets).

stu

[PetrolTed]

HarryW said:

PetrolTed said: It is hard to argue against fitting a good ABS system to a car. Good brakes backed up with an ABS system that doesn't cut in too early would seem preferable. Guess I'm thinking of that Elise again! I do struggle with this though Ted, check out Johno's post earlier about his experience where on a wet track the Griff and a 400SE out braked Elises by an average of over 10m . Hard to argue about IMHO. Like most I have ABS in the eurobox and do wish though, I could switch it off, particulary in the snow/light ice. Harry

I'm talking about the Toymota engined Elise S2 - was Johno?

[PetrolTed]

[PetrolTed]

[RichB]

bennno said:

surely the point is that with abs, traction control / stability management, proper tyres, predictable handling and a slower steering rack you might just have avoided the spin in the first place.

Proper tyres? what are you on about - are you saying Bridgstones are crap now Ben? Also, slower steering rack? I've heard Steve Heath saying that the faster steering rack allows you to catch a tail slide that much more easily, or is he wrong too? Rich...

[nubbin]

lynnj said:

I agree entirely with Peter Wheelers safety statements. I recently crashed my tuscan @ 55mph, spinning it through a hedge, a fence, a gate, down a bank, through a steel gate and gatepost, then into a ditch the other side of the road. The car was entirely written off, with just about all panels, wheels and engine destroyed - however the cockpit of the car was completely untouched. Apart from the glass you could have sat in there and thought no accident had even occured. Pretty amazing if you ask me. The policeman even said to me "lucky you were in a car like this and not a metal bodied car".

I had a similar crash in my Tamora last year - the car was completely wrecked (see here) but I walked away without a scratch after having rolled the car.

It rolled because I braked hard on a dry, straight road, with no road defects, diesel spillage or other "uncontrollable" factor, the tyres were warmed as were the brakes, and the wheels were all straight - so why did I lose control?

The fact is that the strength of the car saved my life - but it was the lack of ABS that put me in danger in the first place (or at leastthat's my belief). I remain convinced that ABS would have prevented lock-up, which I feel was the cause of the crash, and would have allowed me to retain control, as well as the firing of the ABS warning me about (lack of) traction.

I have made enquiries about retro-fitting ABS to TVR's, and for a single unit it would cost around £3000, but for larger numbers of cars, the price would come down to around £1000-1500. I would far rather spend MY cash on that than a fancy paint job at £2k a throw.

I am ambivalent about PW's statements - yes, his cars are VERY strong, but preventing situations that test that strength is probably more important than one man's polarised ideas. If we were given the optrion of ABS or not, we could choose for ourselves, and pay the extra just like othere optional features. What about it, Mr. Wheeler?

>> Edited by nubbin on Tuesday 20th April 09:57

[rab c]

On the subject of 4 point seatbelts, the helicopters we use to go to and from the rigs have 4 point belts with an inertia reel attached to the over the shoulder belts. These would be perfect for the car, does anybody know if they are available for cars?

[ehasler]

Comparing road cars to race cars is a bit pointless, as the types of impact are different, and the safety features fitted to cars are different as well.

Most race cars are fitted with roll hoops/cages, 4/6 point harnesses and head restraints. The drivers are also wearing helmets, and most cars are fitted with additional padding where the driver can contact the car. Compare this to a road car where a 3 point inertia reel belt allows the occupants to move around a lot more in the event of an accident, and the lack of a cage also means more chance of cockpit intrusion or deformation. Also, the occupants aren't wearing helmets, so any head-car contact is not only more likely, but will cause far greater injuries.

Apparently, it only takes an unprotected head to strike a solid object at 12mph for fatal head injuries to occur.

One of the main reasons that airbags are not fitted in F1 is that the HANS device was being developed at the same time, and it was found that this was more effective (and much cheaper to develop) for the typical F1 crash than an airbag. It was also difficult to fit airbags in the tight confines of an F1 cockpit - not a problem with road cars.

As for electronic aids - the main reason for them being unpopular in F1 and other forms of racing is that the drivers feel it dilutes their skill, and narrows the gap between the best drivers and the rest of the field. They also add weight and complexity, and can also cause problems if you need to lock your wheels when spinning.

From what I've read and heard, ABS doesn't give a good driver much advantage in dry and good conditions, but can greatly improve braking distances in slippery conditions, however it does require drivers to re-learn how to brake using ABS (i.e., keep your foot pressed to the floor even when the pedal pulses or goes soft and remember to steer gently rather than just head to the scene of the accident).

As for traction control - I'd say that this is the least important of the features being discussed, as throttle control is down to the driver, and is part of being a good, skilled driver. I've found that the long pedal travel on TVRs is sufficient to be able to control these cars in very slippery conditions with no problems. While I can see why ABS or airbags may be useful in trying to avoid or survive unexpected situations, I don't see traction control as doing the same thing.

[powerlord]

Rab,

dunno about inertia reel, but 3/4 point harness will fit into most cars with rear seats (and seatbelts).

You can fit the front two points to existing mount points, and the rear one or two to the rear lap belt mount points.

This is what I've done in my current cars (mondeo and 300zx).

could probably do the same in a cerb ? tuscan, etc would be more tricky as would need strengthened rear mounting points.

Since harness are always done up tight as a nats chuff, the effect is the same as inertia reels.

Upside down, they should pretty much keep you in your seat.

This is probably good 99% of the time. The alternative is NOT 'I will duck under danshboard', but 'I will flail around hanging out of top of car'.

stu

[ehasler]

rab c said:

On the subject of 4 point seatbelts, the helicopters we use to go to and from the rigs have 4 point belts with an inertia reel attached to the over the shoulder belts. These would be perfect for the car, does anybody know if they are available for cars?

www.safetydevices.co.uk/oldsite/seat00.html

About 1/2 way down the page - ASM AUTO CONTROL HARNESS