RE: Exclusive: The Wheeler Interview
Discussion
Have you ever looked past the gates of a TVR dealership into the bodyshop carpark, what you will see is 90% frontal impacts!!!. I have had an accident in the past in the wet at about 20MPH in a Chimaera which would have been avoided by the use of ABS. When are we going to stop deluding ourselves by saying we are sooo good at driving. A hell of a lot of TVR drivers have these cars as second cars and drive cars with ABS the rest of the time,it does not take to much time to mentally rely on ABS. Ask yourself when it was you last drove a car without ABS!! (apart from the TVR).
Anyway, enough ranting for now, great site!!.
Anyway, enough ranting for now, great site!!.
Mr E said:Beaten to it, but this is a very good point. ABS (on modern cars anyway) will release only the sliding wheel, which will give better modulation than any driver. Fine if all four wheels have the same amount of grip, but even on a race car it is not possible to corner weight perfectly (fuel load, nervous driver etc). The only thing that ABS removes is the ability to skid to a stop (which can be the fastest way of stopping), but most of us would prefer to be able to steer than to grab the last mm of stopping distance.
I'm going to remain unmoved by the ABS arguement I'm afraid. ABS is a good thing (tm) IMHO, and I like it.
Mainly because it will modulate all 4 wheels as best it can.
The best driver in the world still has one pedal for four wheels. You modulate to the wheel with least grip. On a nice smooth consistant road, not a problem.
When was the last time you saw one of those round here?
There is however nothing wrong with setting up the ABS to come in late as Lotus have done. The tests carried out by our leader were possibly not done with one wheel hitting a puddle etc, in which case, the slipping wheel would have been released and the car remained in control.
Likewise traction control - there are guys on here that have it on very high performance cars, and love it. Mr Schumacher preferres his F1 car to come with it, and the Porche system is aparently amazing.
On the plus side though, after a pretty major impact between car and pit wall at Silverstone at the weekend, I can too verify that there is nothing wrong with the space frame covered by curvy fibreglass concept. 70 mph to zero in not very much time at all and I was able to jump straight out and start counting the repair costs. OK - I'm sure a six point harness does no harm in a front impact, but I guess that there are a fair few five star cars out there where the driver would have been much less spritely following a similar impact.
I've read through all of the posts on this thread which is very interesting to say the least. I personally deal with accidents on a daily basis and have done so for quite a while now. Most collisions are minor although several have now been fatal.
All of the collisions I've dealt with so far (lots!) have been the result of driver/rider error alone, this covering all variables such as weather etc. They've all been avoidable.
Consequently I've examined many of the vehicles involved, some fitted with safety devices (airbags etc) some without. From these 'real life' collisions I believe that safety devices do save lives, no question. The line that collisons have happened to newbie drivers (TVR's etc) is of little worth. Yes, it may be true but we can all be caught out! Isn't it better to have devices to prevent people from killing themselves/others? We're only human after all.
I'm not pretending that safety devices are the be all and end all. Better driver training is what's needed but how many people receive additional training post test?
As regards TVR's. Yes, it would be nice if TVR fitted the relevant safety devices to their cars but how realistic is this for such a small volume car maker?
I myself have a Griff 500. I have to say that at times it's handling can be quite evil and would catch me out if I wasn't paying attention. I'm also under no illusions as to how well it would perform should it be in a collision involving another vehicle/fixed object. I accept this however and drive accordingly to the conditions/road surface etc. This isn't to say that I won't get caught out too!
Finally, it would be nice to see the 100-0 brake tests conducted with normal road going tyres, on a wet uneven, manhole/pothole covered road surface whilst negotiating a bend. It'd be interesting to see how many of the testers retain control of their cars.
Sorry to run on and keep it safe.
Edited to say: I do think that customers should have the option (cost aside) of specifying ABS etc for their cars.
>> Edited by RECON RON on Tuesday 20th April 10:51
All of the collisions I've dealt with so far (lots!) have been the result of driver/rider error alone, this covering all variables such as weather etc. They've all been avoidable.
Consequently I've examined many of the vehicles involved, some fitted with safety devices (airbags etc) some without. From these 'real life' collisions I believe that safety devices do save lives, no question. The line that collisons have happened to newbie drivers (TVR's etc) is of little worth. Yes, it may be true but we can all be caught out! Isn't it better to have devices to prevent people from killing themselves/others? We're only human after all.
I'm not pretending that safety devices are the be all and end all. Better driver training is what's needed but how many people receive additional training post test?
As regards TVR's. Yes, it would be nice if TVR fitted the relevant safety devices to their cars but how realistic is this for such a small volume car maker?
I myself have a Griff 500. I have to say that at times it's handling can be quite evil and would catch me out if I wasn't paying attention. I'm also under no illusions as to how well it would perform should it be in a collision involving another vehicle/fixed object. I accept this however and drive accordingly to the conditions/road surface etc. This isn't to say that I won't get caught out too!
Finally, it would be nice to see the 100-0 brake tests conducted with normal road going tyres, on a wet uneven, manhole/pothole covered road surface whilst negotiating a bend. It'd be interesting to see how many of the testers retain control of their cars.
Sorry to run on and keep it safe.
Edited to say: I do think that customers should have the option (cost aside) of specifying ABS etc for their cars.
>> Edited by RECON RON on Tuesday 20th April 10:51
The main thing that puts people off the new brakes on the new Elise is the servo assistance. Elise drivers are used to having to push damn hard to get maximum stopping power, but the feedback from the pedal is brilliant. The servo in the new S2 makes the pedal totally different to use, but the ABS in itself is reportedly very good and only comes on when absolutely necessary (I'm haven't tried it myself, yet).
I voted Yes to the ABS question because I believe that ABS is A Very Good Thing. I practice emergency stops regularly but I'm no racing driver and I know that if it came to an unexpected emergency stop (let's face it, most of them are unexpected) in the wet then I have a good chance of coming unstuck. Literally.
Back on the TVR safety issue I've often thought about getting a TVR but I'm put off Griffs and Chims by their lack of rollover and side impact protection and I'm not yet in a position to be able to afford a more recent model, so TVR ownership remains on my "things to do" list.
I voted Yes to the ABS question because I believe that ABS is A Very Good Thing. I practice emergency stops regularly but I'm no racing driver and I know that if it came to an unexpected emergency stop (let's face it, most of them are unexpected) in the wet then I have a good chance of coming unstuck. Literally.
Back on the TVR safety issue I've often thought about getting a TVR but I'm put off Griffs and Chims by their lack of rollover and side impact protection and I'm not yet in a position to be able to afford a more recent model, so TVR ownership remains on my "things to do" list.
1. Most ABS systems have their activation threshold set quite low so that they will come on too early. They end up sacrificing stopping distance as a result.
2. The quickest way to stop a spinning car is to lock up. I've stopped cars in several lengths this way. Can't do that with an ABS system.
3. The steering input needed to steer around an object with ABS working is huge. If you get an opportunity to try it on a driving course - try it. In most times you hit the object because you haven't reacted fast enough to turn the wheel enough to get the steering. It is not a gentle turn. You then have the problem of getting the car back under control to avoid hitting the next object. Essentially, it is the driver's fault for not allowing enough time to make the right decision. Not the car's ABS etc.
4. I know someone who spun a Merc SLK with all the aids simply by stamping his foot hard on the accelerator with the car slightly out of balance. He thought that all the aids would prevent him from driving like a prat. It didn't and he was fortunate that there was noone else on the road as the car did a succession of 360's down the road before stopping. Many of these aids seem to take away the driver's responsibility to drive within the conditions and skill limits.
5. I do get hacked off with all these claims that people want safety gismos and yet won't pay for them. TC from Racelogic has been around for years. It costs less than a set of bling bling wheels and sat nav and yet very few have installed it. Same with ABS. That really indicates to me that many people don't actually think of it as any value or put another way, fashions and other techie gismos are more worth while.
6. The best safety aid is continious driver training. For my competition licence I am effectively monitored every time I compete. To drive more performant cars I have to show experience and capability in lesser vehicles. Yet to drive on the road, all I had to do was pass a test 30 years ok in a car that had 1/10th of the power of some of the cars I have. That to me is where the whole driving thing has gone wrong. It has become a right rather than a priviledge that has to be earned.
2. The quickest way to stop a spinning car is to lock up. I've stopped cars in several lengths this way. Can't do that with an ABS system.
3. The steering input needed to steer around an object with ABS working is huge. If you get an opportunity to try it on a driving course - try it. In most times you hit the object because you haven't reacted fast enough to turn the wheel enough to get the steering. It is not a gentle turn. You then have the problem of getting the car back under control to avoid hitting the next object. Essentially, it is the driver's fault for not allowing enough time to make the right decision. Not the car's ABS etc.
4. I know someone who spun a Merc SLK with all the aids simply by stamping his foot hard on the accelerator with the car slightly out of balance. He thought that all the aids would prevent him from driving like a prat. It didn't and he was fortunate that there was noone else on the road as the car did a succession of 360's down the road before stopping. Many of these aids seem to take away the driver's responsibility to drive within the conditions and skill limits.
5. I do get hacked off with all these claims that people want safety gismos and yet won't pay for them. TC from Racelogic has been around for years. It costs less than a set of bling bling wheels and sat nav and yet very few have installed it. Same with ABS. That really indicates to me that many people don't actually think of it as any value or put another way, fashions and other techie gismos are more worth while.
6. The best safety aid is continious driver training. For my competition licence I am effectively monitored every time I compete. To drive more performant cars I have to show experience and capability in lesser vehicles. Yet to drive on the road, all I had to do was pass a test 30 years ok in a car that had 1/10th of the power of some of the cars I have. That to me is where the whole driving thing has gone wrong. It has become a right rather than a priviledge that has to be earned.
HarryW said:
It is hard to argue against fitting a good ABS system to a car.
Good brakes backed up with an ABS system that doesn't cut in too early would seem preferable. Guess I'm thinking of that Elise again!
I do struggle with this though Ted, check out Johno's post earlier about his experience where on a wet track the Griff and a 400SE out braked Elises by an average of over 10m. Hard to argue about IMHO.
Like most I have ABS in the eurobox and do wish though, I could switch it off, particulary in the snow/light ice.
Harry
Can you link the post? Doesn't sound very scientific, and remember that there are only a handful of Elises with ABS on the roads at the moment so I'd be surprised if the ones on the trackday had it. In the end braking point has a lot to do with the driver though, and the ABS shouldn't impact things on track unless you cock up.
In 3 years of owning my A6 (and about 50,000 miles) and 30,000 miles in my girlfriend's TT I have never activated the ABS (except when driving on snow which is an ABS problem as we all know). But the fact that it is there is good.
I went on an Audi events day at Silverstone recently and drove a demo A6 and they had a wet braking area set up - one with different surfaces left/right and one just plain wet tarmac. Without the ABS the car took longer to stop on the plain tarmac than with ABS (and I was stomping on the pedal), without ABS on the uneven surface I stopped sideways. With ABS it was fine both times. Now I know in the dry this would not have been the case, but this is England and it rains. Therefore I want ABS.
I also drove a slalom thingy in another A6 with ESP switched on, then switched off. Entering at the same speed and avoiding the cone (think kiddie/dog in the road) the car span out without ESP, I could keep my foot to the floor on the throttle with ESP. I definitely see the point of these kind of aids for day-to-day driving. I hate the ESP on our TT sometimes such as when you're trying to make a quick getaway from the T Junction, but it is turnoffable.
For normal driving with unexpected situations I think it's great.
I'm not saying I want ESP or airbags on a TVR though ... just ABS because we all get it wrong sometimes.
I went on an Audi events day at Silverstone recently and drove a demo A6 and they had a wet braking area set up - one with different surfaces left/right and one just plain wet tarmac. Without the ABS the car took longer to stop on the plain tarmac than with ABS (and I was stomping on the pedal), without ABS on the uneven surface I stopped sideways. With ABS it was fine both times. Now I know in the dry this would not have been the case, but this is England and it rains. Therefore I want ABS.
I also drove a slalom thingy in another A6 with ESP switched on, then switched off. Entering at the same speed and avoiding the cone (think kiddie/dog in the road) the car span out without ESP, I could keep my foot to the floor on the throttle with ESP. I definitely see the point of these kind of aids for day-to-day driving. I hate the ESP on our TT sometimes such as when you're trying to make a quick getaway from the T Junction, but it is turnoffable.
For normal driving with unexpected situations I think it's great. I'm not saying I want ESP or airbags on a TVR though ... just ABS because we all get it wrong sometimes.
As a result of the implementation of European law, from 1st July 2004 all new cars sold in the UK will have to have anti-lock brakes as standard. Manufacturers who produce less than 500 of each model in a year will be exempt. TVR only manage about 1000 total production spread across all models so they will not have to fit them.
!shpub said:
5. I do get hacked off with all these claims that people want safety gismos and yet won't pay for them. TC from Racelogic has been around for years. It costs less than a set of bling bling wheels and sat nav and yet very few have installed it. Same with ABS. That really indicates to me that many people don't actually think of it as any value or put another way, fashions and other techie gismos are more worth while.
I believe retro-fitting the racelogic system invalidates the TVR warranty.
shpub said:
The best safety aid is continious driver training. For my competition licence I am effectively monitored every time I compete. To drive more performant cars I have to show experience and capability in lesser vehicles. Yet to drive on the road, all I had to do was pass a test 30 years ok in a car that had 1/10th of the power of some of the cars I have. That to me is where the whole driving thing has gone wrong. It has become a right rather than a priviledge that has to be earned.
We all know that this is the best option.
How about TVR offering free/discounted driver training with each new car sold instead of adding ABS/TC?
Perhaps dealers could do something with the second hand market too.
I totally agree, but how many drivers of these cars will actually do something about getting extra training?
The ones who need it the most are probably those who are least likely to recognise that they would benefit from it, i.e., those who think they are better drivers than they actually are.
Short of forcing people to take an advanced driving test before getting behind the wheel of a performance car, only those who are keen and willing to learn more will do so.
>> Edited by ehasler on Tuesday 20th April 15:38
The ones who need it the most are probably those who are least likely to recognise that they would benefit from it, i.e., those who think they are better drivers than they actually are.
Short of forcing people to take an advanced driving test before getting behind the wheel of a performance car, only those who are keen and willing to learn more will do so.
>> Edited by ehasler on Tuesday 20th April 15:38
I'm not sure that we all know it. Judging by the accident figures I think it is pretty clear that the real situation is far from it.
They used to do it. They ran a whole set of performance technique days where you went out with an instructor and were graded as to your performance. Really good fun but as the costs went up the attendance really tailed off and the factory stopped them because of the huge losses they were making. The trouble was that those that probably needed the help were the ones that thought they knew it all. The most scary time I have had has been in the passenger seat grading drivers for groups on a track day. It is very sobering indeed!
The another problem is that more of the cars are sold privately and so it comes back to the driver's responsibility.
The crazy thing is that it has been recognised that bikers need to build up experience and the issue of born again biking but this has not yet happened for the sports car world.
They used to do it. They ran a whole set of performance technique days where you went out with an instructor and were graded as to your performance. Really good fun but as the costs went up the attendance really tailed off and the factory stopped them because of the huge losses they were making. The trouble was that those that probably needed the help were the ones that thought they knew it all. The most scary time I have had has been in the passenger seat grading drivers for groups on a track day. It is very sobering indeed!
The another problem is that more of the cars are sold privately and so it comes back to the driver's responsibility.
The crazy thing is that it has been recognised that bikers need to build up experience and the issue of born again biking but this has not yet happened for the sports car world.
GingerNinja said:
I believe retro-fitting the racelogic system invalidates the TVR warranty.
Strictly speaking putting almost anything can be interpreted as breaking the warrenty if you look at the small print including sports exhausts, under body neons etc. Includes any form of motorsport as well.
Still plenty of people I have talked to where the car has been out of warrenty who have dismissed the system as being too expensive and then spending equivalent amounts of money on other things. The conclusion I have come to is many complain but it can't be that important in reality.
Traction control, ABS, EBD, and electronically controlled suspension didnt stop my best mate wrapping his Maser 3200GT round a lampost when he booted it exiting a roundabout. The fact is that he's a self confessed crap driver and relied on these devices too much to get him out of trouble. I probably drive my TVR with far more caution than I would if it had all those safety aids.
If you want these kind of safety devices go buy a Porsche/Maserati or have it retro fitted. Not having it as standard on TVR's keeps the price down for those of us who would rather do without it
If you want these kind of safety devices go buy a Porsche/Maserati or have it retro fitted. Not having it as standard on TVR's keeps the price down for those of us who would rather do without it
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