ABS to become standard?

[pbrettle]

Spotted in the Driving supplement in the Times on Sunday (ok, no the paragon of journalism) but they are saying that come 2004 all new cars sold in the EU have to come with ABS as standard due to a new law that they have passed.

Not sure if this affects TVR with the old low volume vehicle approval bit, but worth taking a note of. Anyone know more of what the deal might / will be?

[pbrettle]

icamm said:

A. they aids will stop them having an accident

Dont knock it - went to see a Merc dealer about an SLK (and before anyone says - it was for the wife, who once driving it said "no stuffing way"). He blithered on about how ABS is a safety aid and it will help you in an accident....

Only to be corrected by me and then asked how that Brake assist stuff works (no one has ever explained it to me!). Again it was something that "helps in a crash". Had a test drive, told him the car was crap and he should go on a refresher car-knowledge course...

Unfortunately - not his fault per se, as he was merely telling me what countless other people wanted to hear and think they know.... that ABS saves you in an accident - which it plainly doesnt...

[pbrettle]

spnracing said:

Getting back to the title of the thread - if the EU are considering making ABS mandatory in all new cars I think its a good thing. If that then brings small companies like TVR in line then I'd be more inclined to consider another one sometime in the future.

For some it might be good news, but what about the others like Caterham, Westfield and the other small volume manufacturers? How do they fit ABS then?

As for some of the other comments on ABS.... a top quality ABS system is a good aid to braking on fast, heavy cars as already commented. But on light sports cars I dont really see the need - dont get me wrong, if the car had it fitted as standard I wouldnt care, but I have the fortune of having Wilwood brakes fitted to my car and I defy anyone this side of an M3 or Porsche to outbrake me.... I cannot under almost all circumstances lock the wheels - not cos I aint trying hard enough, but simply because they are damn fine brakes with plenty of progression and are just SO effective....

Oh, and as for the comment about everyone with a TVR is "just such a good driver"... well, think about it for a minute. Driving a TVR is not a mundane experience and you really need to know what / how / when to drive it. Not saying that all TVR drivers are excellent, but the fact that they are aware of the cars performance and hence drive them accordingly is a testement to the fact that in general they arent that crashed (except Tuscans it seems )....

Manufacturers such as BMW, Porsche and Merc need to fit ABS as they have a wider appeal and, lets face it, are bought by numpties who get them for the image..... if anything the manufacturers need to fit safety devices for their own protection (US market anyone?).

Personally I dont hear of anyone that walks into a TVR dealer and says "I want that Tuscan / Tamora / T350" and the dealer says "it hasnt got ABS" so the buyer walks away.... it doesnt happen and we are all pretty much aware of what the cars are capable of and what the limitations are....

[pbrettle]

spnracing said:

So why are most TVR's insurance group 20 then? I've seen plenty of stuffed TVR's....

Accidents happen - some self-induced, some not... but all TVR's are group 20 due to a number of factors:

1) Performance
2) Availability of spares and parts
3) Costs of repairs
4) Target for theft and vandalism
5) Likelyhood of accident

They are not group 20 cos people stuff them all of the time. Its a risk game and lets be honest here the Audi A8 is group 20. A Golf GTI 16v is 16 and a Fiat Cinq is around 3-4.... the grouping scheme is a farce at best...

spnracing said:

I'd agree that its the more discerning motorist that tends to go for one - but don't agree that even they wouldn't be better off having ABS in the background just in case. Especially if it was switchable for track days.

That would be a good idea, but while there is no pressure to do so, TVR wont fit them as standard. There is little customer demand and as already mentioned, you can retro fit for £3K anyway....

Would a TVR be better with ABS? Does it make the driving experience more fun? Does it add to the unique looks, performance and appeal of a TVR? Not quite - its a feature and certainly not a benefit....

spnracing said:

TVR's don't have lightweight Wilwood 4 pots as standard - do they?

No, thats why I said that I was fortunate enough to have them... but my point was that a well set-up brake system is just as good some poxy old ABS system anyday.... and Wilwoods fitted to your car are much less than retro-fitting ABS.... and they do add a difference as braking performance is improved and you dont get any fase.... does ABS fix that?

[pbrettle]

You know all this stuff about better braking with ABS is a bit misleading. A few years ago, I was fortunate enough to do a race driving school course at the Jim Russell school at Silverstone (now moved to California - lucky sod).

Anyway, at the time we used Pug 306 GTI6's which are cracking motors. They came fitted with ABS and the first part of the course was braking.... we learned effective braking and how to bring the speed down with control - with ABS enabled.... we then went on to insert a small piece of metal to disable the ABS and do it all again....

At first we all locked up badly and then steadily we learned to not lock-up and use the brakes and tyres effectively. We were then tasked with bringing our braking distance down - getting shorter and shorter.... in fact we ALL managed to get the braking distance to a significantly shorter than we attained with ABS... not by a couple of feet, but much more than that (we were braking from 60MPH so not slow speeds here)..

Then we then went on to do the rest of the course with the ABS disabled - hence my appreciation that ABS is good and for the vast majority of drivers its never used.... but having been there and had the difference directly illustrated, I can confidently say that braking without ABS is better and you have more control - distances are shorter.

This is a lesson that I have learned and not forgotten - if my money spent on the course has not taught me anything else, it has taught me that ABS is good, but the human brain is better and in a lot of circumstances more effective.... So, the natural assumption of ABS being good and safe and what we all need isnt necessarily the case. But like I said, if my car came with it as standard, I wouldnt really care..... ABS is good, but its not some magic bullet that keeps the car from having accidents....