Winter tyres vol 2

[jon-]

FiF said:

MC Bodge said:

Do I detect that people on here are finally conceding that winter tyres are actually, probably, not really that necessary for most people in the UK? There is even Dissenting talk about the " 7degc rule" ??

You mean that some of us for years have questioned the 7C as a significant point, look back and the suggestions that 2 or 3C is the start of where the benefit can be clearly seen.

The other issue you're ignoring is tyre development. Some years back it was either put full on winters or not. There was little information out there in the press or the net, and none in tyre dealers, to help people choose based on their individual circumstances. It's always been the case that there have been certain tyres, sold as full on winters, but which were less biased to snow and ice and performed better in cold and wet and dry than the full on almost Nordic spec stuff and thus better for UK conditions.

Then there were the all season stuff from Vredestein, but at a price. Only this year with the CrossClimate from Michelin and the All Weather from Nokian have products really come to the market which are much more in line with UK conditions. And they're selling and taking sales from full winters, and converting some who previously didn't bother.

As always it's still the case that the sweeping statement "most people don't need / do need" is twaddle. There is no single answer which fits most people and it's about time folks stopped trotting it out. Individual circumstances and needs are the main issue can result in the right answer for them being anything from not changing anything to maintaining two full sets. The correct answer for that individual may be quite different from what's the optimum solution for their next door neighbour.

I'm on worn SuperSports, so as far away from winters as I can be, and I'm fairly certain the real switch point is about 3c. That said, if I can generate temperature, they're still fine below that.

[Orangecurry]

HoHoHo said:

On a typical winters day using summers I can't even with the gentlest of peddle pushing make good progress without the traction light flashing away and big puddles are a nightmare. Put winters on and whilst I still get the light, it's not on as frequently and puddles seem to disappear.

Ah no your real problem is the connection between your brain and your right leg.

[HustleRussell]

vikingaero said:

Problem with "Summer Tyres" is that they've gone too far the other way. They will have the obligatory circumference tread but very little else. Add on the "Sport" moniker and you can see their intended use. Tyres of yesteryear if anything were more like the all weather tyres we have today with blocky tread which is why years ago people still got around. These days every hatchback has 17" or 18" tyres with SportBruvInnit tyres on.

I dunno. I think the worsening of summer tyres in the ice / snow is pretty much entirely due to their constant widening. Tread patterns have got less suitable for it but I recon that's pretty much cancelled out by rubber compounds which don't turn into bakelite at near freezing temperatures.

I've found that on a normal sized car as tyres get wider than around 205 section width they get increasingly hopeless.

All this talk of 18" wheels now being the norm massages my smugness at having sensibly sized wheels / tyres- 205/65r15 at the moment. The very best tyres are under £100 each, too.

[RammyMP]

Drove over the hills to Rochdale last night to pick my son up from his mates, wish I had the winters on, it was -2 and the car was sliding about a bit! I think the gritters around here are still in storage!

[Slow]

HustleRussell said:

vikingaero said:

Problem with "Summer Tyres" is that they've gone too far the other way. They will have the obligatory circumference tread but very little else. Add on the "Sport" moniker and you can see their intended use. Tyres of yesteryear if anything were more like the all weather tyres we have today with blocky tread which is why years ago people still got around. These days every hatchback has 17" or 18" tyres with SportBruvInnit tyres on.

I dunno. I think the worsening of summer tyres in the ice / snow is pretty much entirely due to their constant widening. Tread patterns have got less suitable for it but I recon that's pretty much cancelled out by rubber compounds which don't turn into bakelite at near freezing temperatures.

I've found that on a normal sized car as tyres get wider than around 205 section width they get increasingly hopeless.

All this talk of 18" wheels now being the norm massages my smugness at having sensibly sized wheels / tyres- 205/65r15 at the moment. The very best tyres are under £100 each, too.

My first 3 cars all had 15/16 wheels, tyres were cheap and they worked in winter on my summer tyres.
Then I had a bmw on wide 17s that was hopeless as well as being rwd, got winters for that. Now my current Range Rover is sitting on rediculous 20" wheels that are 275/40/20 so it just sits on top of the snow so winter tyres were needed for sure. Tyres are £100+ if have a name you remotely know. Sadly 18" is the smallest you can go anyway due to the size of brakes, as cars have got heavier they have needed bigger brakes and thus bigger wheels.

[MC Bodge]

RammyMP said:

Drove over the hills to Rochdale last night to pick my son up from his mates, wish I had the winters on, it was -2 and the car was sliding about a bit! I think the gritters around here are still in storage!

I cycled/slid over the Rivington-Belmont road yesterday. It was literally covered in ice and frozen snow for most of it. It could be easily bypassed, though, and will probably have melted today.

[HoHoHo]

Orangecurry said:

HoHoHo said:

On a typical winters day using summers I can't even with the gentlest of peddle pushing make good progress without the traction light flashing away and big puddles are a nightmare. Put winters on and whilst I still get the light, it's not on as frequently and puddles seem to disappear.

Ah no your real problem is the connection between your brain and your right leg.

I think you could well be correct with your conclusion

[rambo19]

What worries me is that people fit winter tyres and then then think they can still drive like idiots in bad weather because the tyres will save them.

[nickfrog]

MC Bodge said:

I cycled/slid over the Rivington-Belmont road yesterday. It was literally covered in ice and frozen snow for most of it. It could be easily bypassed, though, and will probably have melted today.

That reminds me of a situation where "bypassing" the South Downs 3 years ago meant a 1-hour drive on roads clogged up with people doing 6mph on summer tyres whereas the road through the downs on winters took 10mn and afforded superb scenery. ;-).

[48Valves]

Wills2 said:

Billy_Whizzzz said:

FiF said:

As always it's still the case that the sweeping statement "most people don't need / do need" is twaddle. There is no single answer which fits most people and it's about time folks stopped trotting it out. Individual circumstances and needs are the main issue can result in the right answer for them being anything from not changing anything to maintaining two full sets. The correct answer for that individual may be quite different from what's the optimum solution for their next door neighbour.

Exactly. Blanket 'need' statements are meaningless. I CHOOSE to put on winters on a RWD 5 series as I don't want to get caught out trying to get home late from a far flung part of the UK as my work takes me all over the place and I'm often travelling early in the morning on frosty roads or late at night. So I may get to the end of winter and find I haven't needed them but it's not much effort or cost to put them on as an insurance policy. We pay insurance for all sorts of things - so why not this. If I worked locally and all my commuting was on gritted roads then I probably wouldn't need them...

Agreed you're paying for surety and nothing wrong in that, I drive up down the country and winters have saved my bacon many times, if I commuted to work 4-5 miles each way in the SE in a little FWD hatchback I'd probably do without them.

I agree it's about choice.

Having lived in West Yorkshire for most of my life, I never had winter tyres and I only ever got stuck once in winter and that was because the road was a sheet of ice, I think studded tyres would have struggled. However now I have moved to the flatlands of Cambridgeshire I have just bought a set of winters for the very first time. Why? because I now have a reasonably powerful rear wheel drive car with wide tyres. The roads round here are generally covered in wet mud and the winter tyres might just enable me to get home from work on the 2 days we get snow.

[RammyMP]

Got some new rubber on order, Michelin Alpin 5s from Event Tyres, £50 back when you order 4.

Edited by RammyMP on Sunday 22 November 16:19

[johnwilliams77]

Any further feedback on cross climates in snow?

[tenohfive]

FiF said:

MC Bodge said:

Do I detect that people on here are finally conceding that winter tyres are actually, probably, not really that necessary for most people in the UK? There is even Dissenting talk about the " 7degc rule" ??

most people don't need / do need" is twaddle. There is no single answer which fits most people and it's about time folks stopped trotting it out.

I'm going to disagree here, and with a sweeping statement to boot. Well, sort of.

Most people need to adjust something either before or when any ice and snow arrives.
That 'something' could consist of any of the following options, plus a few others besides:

Take public transport.
Avoid driving.
Drive more slowly.
Learn how to drive effectively in icy conditions with restricted grip.
Do some research on which roads are passable and allow extra time for their journey.
Use snow socks/chains (if appropriate.)
Fit winter or all seasons tyres.

They need to do one or several of those things because every time any snow and/or ice arrives our roadsides become littered with abandoned cars, there is traffic chaos and there are crashes galore (leading to increased premiums for us all.)

But we all know that it doesn't and won't happen. Too big a percentage of the motoring public don't or won't adapt to the conditions. I've said before that your typical PH'er isn't necessarily a typical motorist - the 'winters are worthless' brigade all have some sort of an interest in motoring to even be here and put some thought into their driving and their car, and will at length mention how they adapt by using one/several of the options mentioned above.

Any one of the options if adopted more widely could reduce the negative impact of ice and snow and save a lot of people a lot of hassle and money. Winters/all seasons are just one of those, but it's the one that requires the least adjustment in terms of time and/or lifestyle so I can see why their use has increased over the years. They aren't a silver bullet and I completely agree that there is no 'right' answer - but there is a part of me that gets annoyed with other motorists that just don't care enough to do SOMETHING and carry on blithely in adverse weather, trusting that all will be fine.

[DallaraV8]

For what its worth I'm into my 4th year of Nokian WRG3s - continuous use, only done about 20k on them but still about 5mm remaining. Can't be bothered to remove them for the seasons, more than adequate grip for a 330d regardless of the weather, obviously not ultimate grip in the dry, but hey its a road car not a track car!

[Countdown]

tenohfive said:

<snip>Winters/all seasons are just one of those, but it's the one that requires the least adjustment in terms of time and/or lifestyle <snip>

I agree with your post apart from the bit above. Winters/all seasons aren't "the least adjustment". The "least" adjustment is driving more slowly or, in my case for example, not driving at all.

As has been suggested in the numerous previous pages "one size does NOT fit all". It is perfectly possible to drive safely, year in year out, without winter tyres. Equally it is perfectly possible that, depending on where you live, winter tyres are an absolutely essential requirement every year from the 1st November to 30th April.

No one size fits all

[tenohfive]

Countdown said:

I agree with your post apart from the bit above. Winters/all seasons aren't "the least adjustment". The "least" adjustment is driving more slowly or, in my case for example, not driving at all.

If you're going to snip my post, then take the whole quote rather than changing it's context.
I said,
"the least adjustment in terms of time and/or lifestyle,"

To which you're suggesting that,
"The least adjustment is driving more slowly or, in my case for example, not driving at all."

I'd suggest that taking more time requires an adjustment of - funnily enough - time. And to not drive at all requires an adjustment of lifestyle. So I stand by that (whole) remark.

Either way - by choosing any of the options mentioned, including winters/all seasons - you're going to be making some sort of sacrifice in exchange for some sort of benefit, so it has to be a personal and informed decision.

Edited by tenohfive on Sunday 22 November 20:42

[FiF]

So tenohfive opens his post with "I'm going to disagree..." and then went onto agree, essentially. Not going to argue any specifics but that's the point, there is no single answer.

[tenohfive]

FiF said:

So tenohfive opens his post with "I'm going to disagree..." and then went onto agree, essentially. Not going to argue any specifics but that's the point, there is no single answer.

Yeah, we've both been in this thread year on year and I think we have similar views - I just wanted to be awkward. But I don't entirely agree with the live and let live approach. Those that weigh up the pro's and con's, great, at least it's a considered decision. Those who don't bother to adjust or do their research and just gamble with my insurance excess..I'm not so happy to sit and say, "well, it's his call.'

I'm not suggesting there's an answer to that particular problem - the opposite in fact, I think we're all doomed to take our chances with such people who form I believe the majority of UK motorists. But I don't have to like it.

[FiF]

tenohfive said:

FiF said:

So tenohfive opens his post with "I'm going to disagree..." and then went onto agree, essentially. Not going to argue any specifics but that's the point, there is no single answer.

Yeah, we've both been in this thread year on year and I think we have similar views - I just wanted to be awkward. But I don't entirely agree with the live and let live approach. Those that weigh up the pro's and con's, great, at least it's a considered decision. Those who don't bother to adjust or do their research and just gamble with my insurance excess..I'm not so happy to sit and say, "well, it's his call.'

I'm not suggesting there's an answer to that particular problem - the opposite in fact, I think we're all doomed to take our chances with such people who form I believe the majority of UK motorists. But I don't have to like it.

No worries, I'm an awkward old cuss too.

Agree with the rest of your post too.

There's another group who take their chances that get my goat. Those who I shall loosely label as service providers that people rely on to turn up, for whatever reason they take their chances, possibly ignorance or financially driven, then rely on the "it's the weather innit" or "sheesh council gritters" excuse for their and only their failure.

[Patrick Bateman]

I've yet to change mine over whenever I get the M5 back from the garage but I've been driving around the Highlands this weekend in the Clio (on Goodyear Eagles) and I can't honestly say it felt anything other than planted in damp conditions from as low as -2 to 3 degrees. Would struggle to imagine it feeling more secure on winters in the same conditions.