Lotus:- The End?
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
Scuffers said:
Lotus desperately need a new car, and the Evora is not it.
But can the Evora become 'it'? A re-skin can't be all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. Can the other issues be sorted? Can one make it more 911 and less Mondial?the rear end (chassis) needs to have re-designed to get the engine back into a sensible place (and preferably with a decent engine).
that will cost real money (as well as time) so unlikely to happen.
disagree, the evora chassis is good enough for your average porsche punter. as with all things lotus, more hp and better headline figures will solve most of the problems especially if the car has cocos elan body on it. sounds expensive either way though ....
Scuffers said:
no, because the basic design was fubared by the 2+2 crap.
the rear end (chassis) needs to have re-designed to get the engine back into a sensible place (and preferably with a decent engine).
that will cost real money (as well as time) so unlikely to happen.
the rear end (chassis) needs to have re-designed to get the engine back into a sensible place (and preferably with a decent engine).
that will cost real money (as well as time) so unlikely to happen.
Scuffers said:
no, because the basic design was fubared by the 2+2 crap.
the rear end (chassis) needs to have re-designed to get the engine back into a sensible place (and preferably with a decent engine).
that will cost real money (as well as time) so unlikely to happen.
That was rather my point, however; Porsche were 'saved' by the 911, a package considerably more compromised than the Evora's. I have a 6-year old son, I live in London. I'd love an Elise, but I have no use case for it, and nowhere to park it. An Evora, however, would - potentially - fit the bill. I can't get past the looks, sadly, nor the rather tuneless engine. Are those so hard to fix?the rear end (chassis) needs to have re-designed to get the engine back into a sensible place (and preferably with a decent engine).
that will cost real money (as well as time) so unlikely to happen.
I've been following this thread with interest & I can't beleive the disappointment in the evora 
My whole point of following this thread is because the evora may/should/could be my new car.
I'm just not feeling the need to sink a lot of cash into a car that may not exist in the near future, but otherwise it's perfect.
The engine sounds ok to me, it handles sublimely, it looks great from most angles & it's comfy with lots of toys.
It's not too expensive & the rear seats mean an air of practicality I can get past the other half!
Mid thirties, no kids & a fairly disposable income, maybe I am the punter lotus are going after but then the evora looks after others too.
Should we have a sprog come along it'll fit in the back for a while, my father also doesn't like how his grandchildren can't fit in the boxster so it's gathering those sales too.
As you can probably tell I really like the car, the company however, I'm not so sure about....
My whole point of following this thread is because the evora may/should/could be my new car.
I'm just not feeling the need to sink a lot of cash into a car that may not exist in the near future, but otherwise it's perfect.
The engine sounds ok to me, it handles sublimely, it looks great from most angles & it's comfy with lots of toys.
It's not too expensive & the rear seats mean an air of practicality I can get past the other half!
Mid thirties, no kids & a fairly disposable income, maybe I am the punter lotus are going after but then the evora looks after others too.
Should we have a sprog come along it'll fit in the back for a while, my father also doesn't like how his grandchildren can't fit in the boxster so it's gathering those sales too.
As you can probably tell I really like the car, the company however, I'm not so sure about....
well tuners are apparently getting close to 400bhp from the S engine ... and getting it to sound very characterful.
so how hard can it be for an engineering co like lotus to do that from scratch? ... stick something/anything designed by coco on it and whose to say you cant get a fair shot at being able to compete assuming the chassis is rather good?
simply mindbogglingly average management.
so how hard can it be for an engineering co like lotus to do that from scratch? ... stick something/anything designed by coco on it and whose to say you cant get a fair shot at being able to compete assuming the chassis is rather good?
simply mindbogglingly average management.
I happen to know who's been doing the tuning work for Lotus Motorsport - a very highly regarded British motorsport engine builder.
Regarding the Toyota V6, 440bhp is all there for the taking with very little modification and minimum impact on longevity or road manners too. This is not by any standards a bad engine. It was all being planned for future Evora and Exige models. They said that Lotus didn't do the work on the cheap they spent proper money in all the right places and the development work they commissioned was, in their opinion, first rate. There were also faster NA versions being developed. Then the money dried up overnight.
There's a 600bhp supercharged V6 sitting there on a bench, all paid for by Lotus, with nowhere to go. They said it's not suitable for road use but it would slot straight in an Evora or Exige V6.
Regarding the Toyota V6, 440bhp is all there for the taking with very little modification and minimum impact on longevity or road manners too. This is not by any standards a bad engine. It was all being planned for future Evora and Exige models. They said that Lotus didn't do the work on the cheap they spent proper money in all the right places and the development work they commissioned was, in their opinion, first rate. There were also faster NA versions being developed. Then the money dried up overnight.
There's a 600bhp supercharged V6 sitting there on a bench, all paid for by Lotus, with nowhere to go. They said it's not suitable for road use but it would slot straight in an Evora or Exige V6.
would love to see a new Lotus with longitudinal engine layout...
maybe that 600bhp V6 could also be used for that
I hope they soon can pay all those parts from third companies to finish the Exige's so they can sell those and have some money (not enough I know) and customers their Exige.
I guess it cast also a lot lost money when they only can make "half" the car to finish them when parts arrive (when the bill is paid or paid for them)
maybe that 600bhp V6 could also be used for that
I hope they soon can pay all those parts from third companies to finish the Exige's so they can sell those and have some money (not enough I know) and customers their Exige.
I guess it cast also a lot lost money when they only can make "half" the car to finish them when parts arrive (when the bill is paid or paid for them)
This is all back to old ground, where all the regulars discuss the merits and criticisms of various models, and blame them for Lotus' current state.
The thing is, the Lotus name (and good reviews) carry a lot of credit, so whether or not the cars are too X or not enough Y shouldn't prevent at least a few getting into the hands of customers. Clearly they're not, which suggests a much bigger problem than BHP Top Trumps.
It looks increasingly that Proton allowed/encouraged/forced the company to run on a shoestring, with no investment into sales channels, brand or marketing. Models, production and the entire company stagnated from one 5 year 'rescue' plan to the next, with the Esprit replacement now being in development for over a decade. You might argue that after the Elise, it was believed that what rescued the company was clever engineering and nothing else.
Now that they have two models that are looking increasingly well resolved, the long term lack of investment is biting them on the arse. Dealers are sparse, low profile and poorly stocked. Would-be customers just don't search them out, and when they do they find out that the nearest person who could sell them a car is an hour and a half away. Outside of enthusiasts, no-one knows what the company sells, or what they're planning to sell.
In my neck of the woods, the very first thing you have to work on is customers. Any business has to be built on a foundation of repeatable, scaleable sales - and that requires that you can sell to someone, and do it again and again. Fundamentally, the models they now produce aren't so flawed that they can't appeal to some people. If Cadillac can sell it's Sports Wagon for £75K with a straight face, then the Exige V6 is more than marketable. The problem is that customers aren't able to even get close to the products. Do they ignore them because of the price or the power? No, because I'd bet your average customer has not got as far as finding out if there is a Lotus with an engine and a finance option that suits their needs.
Essentially, DRB have got to get the wheels turning before it's worth worrying about fine tuning or replacing the current models. They need cars going out the door, and they need forecourts that see footfall. If DRB focus, like Proton, on nothing more than the engineering behind the cars, it won't matter if they produce the perfect car - no-one will buy it.
The thing is, the Lotus name (and good reviews) carry a lot of credit, so whether or not the cars are too X or not enough Y shouldn't prevent at least a few getting into the hands of customers. Clearly they're not, which suggests a much bigger problem than BHP Top Trumps.
It looks increasingly that Proton allowed/encouraged/forced the company to run on a shoestring, with no investment into sales channels, brand or marketing. Models, production and the entire company stagnated from one 5 year 'rescue' plan to the next, with the Esprit replacement now being in development for over a decade. You might argue that after the Elise, it was believed that what rescued the company was clever engineering and nothing else.
Now that they have two models that are looking increasingly well resolved, the long term lack of investment is biting them on the arse. Dealers are sparse, low profile and poorly stocked. Would-be customers just don't search them out, and when they do they find out that the nearest person who could sell them a car is an hour and a half away. Outside of enthusiasts, no-one knows what the company sells, or what they're planning to sell.
In my neck of the woods, the very first thing you have to work on is customers. Any business has to be built on a foundation of repeatable, scaleable sales - and that requires that you can sell to someone, and do it again and again. Fundamentally, the models they now produce aren't so flawed that they can't appeal to some people. If Cadillac can sell it's Sports Wagon for £75K with a straight face, then the Exige V6 is more than marketable. The problem is that customers aren't able to even get close to the products. Do they ignore them because of the price or the power? No, because I'd bet your average customer has not got as far as finding out if there is a Lotus with an engine and a finance option that suits their needs.
Essentially, DRB have got to get the wheels turning before it's worth worrying about fine tuning or replacing the current models. They need cars going out the door, and they need forecourts that see footfall. If DRB focus, like Proton, on nothing more than the engineering behind the cars, it won't matter if they produce the perfect car - no-one will buy it.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I've been following this thread with interest & I can't beleive the disappointment in the evora
My whole point of following this thread is because the evora may/should/could be my new car.
I'm just not feeling the need to sink a lot of cash into a car that may not exist in the near future, but otherwise it's perfect.
with respect, you have not brought one, thus it's failed.My whole point of following this thread is because the evora may/should/could be my new car.
I'm just not feeling the need to sink a lot of cash into a car that may not exist in the near future, but otherwise it's perfect.
saying you *might* buy one is not the point, Lotus need to sell thousands of them to people that are going to commit the cash, not have people saying they might buy one..
if you remember when it was launched, every Jurno said it was the best car since sliced bread, but they never actually bought one (and how many have 911's?), words are cheap....
We have to face facts, the Evora is as good as dead.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I've been following this thread with interest & I can't beleive the disappointment in the evora
My whole point of following this thread is because the evora may/should/could be my new car.
I'm just not feeling the need to sink a lot of cash into a car that may not exist in the near future, but otherwise it's perfect.
The engine sounds ok to me, it handles sublimely, it looks great from most angles & it's comfy with lots of toys.
It's not too expensive & the rear seats mean an air of practicality I can get past the other half!
Mid thirties, no kids & a fairly disposable income, maybe I am the punter lotus are going after but then the evora looks after others too.
Should we have a sprog come along it'll fit in the back for a while, my father also doesn't like how his grandchildren can't fit in the boxster so it's gathering those sales too.
As you can probably tell I really like the car, the company however, I'm not so sure about....
Hmmm thats the problem with some opinions on this thread they are not the most informed, they are just 'views' and 'opinions' the engine is good your points for buying one are valid. My whole point of following this thread is because the evora may/should/could be my new car.
I'm just not feeling the need to sink a lot of cash into a car that may not exist in the near future, but otherwise it's perfect.
The engine sounds ok to me, it handles sublimely, it looks great from most angles & it's comfy with lots of toys.
It's not too expensive & the rear seats mean an air of practicality I can get past the other half!
Mid thirties, no kids & a fairly disposable income, maybe I am the punter lotus are going after but then the evora looks after others too.
Should we have a sprog come along it'll fit in the back for a while, my father also doesn't like how his grandchildren can't fit in the boxster so it's gathering those sales too.
As you can probably tell I really like the car, the company however, I'm not so sure about....
To try and put some of the cobblers that are posted in context, if you take a £50 -£60K Merc and look at the devaluation from new its no different to an Evora. go chat to people who own an Evora most I have to say cant be bothered with the opinions posted on this site and probably only a tiny percentage actually vist and post on this site.
Toaster said:
To try and put some of the cobblers that are posted in context, if you take a £50 -£60K Merc and look at the devaluation from new its no different to an Evora. go chat to people who own an Evora most I have to say cant be bothered with the opinions posted on this site and probably only a tiny percentage actually vist and post on this site.
all true, except one minor point...there are millions of people driving round in Merc's, bugger all in Evora's....
given the choice of an Evora or a Merc as an only car (for the same money) it's a no brainer, 99.9% of people will take the Merc.
until Lotus make a car that does not have this problem, they are stuffed.
Scuffers said:
all true, except one minor point...
there are millions of people driving round in Merc's, bugger all in Evora's....
given the choice of an Evora or a Merc as an only car (for the same money) it's a no brainer, 99.9% of people will take the Merc.
until Lotus make a car that does not have this problem, they are stuffed.
Ah well then thats different and your talking about a different market segment/requirement, someone who wants a Merc (and I only chose Merc as a 'presige' brand the same applies to BMW etc etc)there are millions of people driving round in Merc's, bugger all in Evora's....
given the choice of an Evora or a Merc as an only car (for the same money) it's a no brainer, 99.9% of people will take the Merc.
until Lotus make a car that does not have this problem, they are stuffed.
Stating the obvious but Lotus has always tended to make small two seater cars a couple of exceptions but in general terms these are for either household with more than one car single guys / girls. Can these be used as a daily driver and put the shopping in, in general terms yes. The Europa S had a reasonable sized boot as does the Evora and the 2+0 even more space inside.
The Issue affecting Evora sales is probably not the cost but the same market conditions that are affecting sales for all manufactures (not just automobiles)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-27/ferrari-t...
“We have a very volatile product,” Stephan Winkelmann, the head of Lamborghini, said in a Bloomberg Television interview at the Paris Motor Show. “Our customers buy this product not because they need mobility, but because they want a dream fulfilled. So if it’s not the right time -- even if they have the money -- they might not buy it.”
Now up until the last financial year Lotus sold 1,985 units during the year ended March 2011, according to Proton’s annual report, in the article above McLaren aims to double sales to 3,000 vehicles by 2016 as it adds at least three models or variants not the 10's of thousands you are suggesting a company needs to produce to be profitable.
Whilst you may not like the Evora there are many who do, and it does attract a lot of attention so not quite the Pup you seem to be making out.
the exige v6 is eminently marketable because crucially its the first lotus far quicker than its price relative peers. that's the trick. simples. absolutely nothing else. in reality its still a compromised car.
that's the point made in every review of the v6 so far and why the likes of Harris raved about it.
its the articles jabbering on just how quick/good the car was comparing it to a gt3 etc that built up the order book (and that's before any real comparisons took place) - it gave the car instant status - instant reputation. every new lotus since the s1 should have achieved the same target irrespective of how compromised it was. not quick enough, make it quicker !
and that's precisely how you sell an expensive low volume compromised sports car, you get the press to love it and you get it status overnight and you build off that. not by producing something for >10 years at £40k that 'may' 'have it in the corners' but will get pummeled by a tdi after 50mph , forget about the porsche comparisons.
do you honestly think anyone apart from a beard will take a car like that seriously? and its 'anyone' that makes the car company profitable, not the beards.
that's the point made in every review of the v6 so far and why the likes of Harris raved about it.
its the articles jabbering on just how quick/good the car was comparing it to a gt3 etc that built up the order book (and that's before any real comparisons took place) - it gave the car instant status - instant reputation. every new lotus since the s1 should have achieved the same target irrespective of how compromised it was. not quick enough, make it quicker !
and that's precisely how you sell an expensive low volume compromised sports car, you get the press to love it and you get it status overnight and you build off that. not by producing something for >10 years at £40k that 'may' 'have it in the corners' but will get pummeled by a tdi after 50mph , forget about the porsche comparisons.
do you honestly think anyone apart from a beard will take a car like that seriously? and its 'anyone' that makes the car company profitable, not the beards.
Tuna said:
the Exige V6 is more than marketable. The problem is that customers aren't able to even get close to the products. Do they ignore them because of the price or the power? No, because I'd bet your average customer has not got as far as finding out if there is a Lotus with an engine and a finance option that suits their needs.
Essentially, DRB have got to get the wheels turning before it's worth worrying about fine tuning or replacing the current models. They need cars going out the door, and they need forecourts that see footfall. If DRB focus, like Proton, on nothing more than the engineering behind the cars, it won't matter if they produce the perfect car - no-one will buy it.
Essentially, DRB have got to get the wheels turning before it's worth worrying about fine tuning or replacing the current models. They need cars going out the door, and they need forecourts that see footfall. If DRB focus, like Proton, on nothing more than the engineering behind the cars, it won't matter if they produce the perfect car - no-one will buy it.
Edited by bobo on Monday 15th October 18:13
harryowl said:
cardigankid said:
The original Elite and Elan were not small cars.
Lotus however have got smaller, if anything, and I repeat that there is a very limited market for tiny glassfibre cars. You talk of the Exige S being the way forward. This is what an 'outsider' thinks about it. Most people won't buy them, however much they respect the technology, which they do, because every time they walk up to one, it comes up to their ankle, they look at the HGV's flashing by, and they think, 'I could die in this thing.' And furthermore, if it comes to the worst, all that plastic will disintegrate and leave them sitting in a go-kart holding a steering wheel. You are enthusiasts, you see the perfect weekend/track day tool. Most of the rest of us see a plastic coffin with racing stripes. I know all cars have to pass the Euro safety tests, but that is still the perception, and it is an entirely understandable one. Lotus have put themselves in a market segment with TVR, Marcos and Ginetta. How many are they going to sell in the States where most people must reckon its a pedal car? The days where you could sell a successful back to basics sports car in the UK market alone, are over.
There is of course a best selling two seater Lotus sports car, it just happens to be built by Mazda. What were Hethel thinking about?
Look, the brand is never going to die, there are too many legends associated with it, and I entirely agree about the marketing organisation (though they did make a major effort with the Evora) but you have got to make a car that a significant number of people want to buy, and what it boils down to is, they don't.
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 16th October 18:23
bobo said:
scuffham,
have you driven a recent evora? its not that bad... it failed (if you could get round the styling) because of the horrendous build quality of the LE models. its reputation was dead in minutes.
i was locked in one on my test drive ... i had to get out via a window ffs!
Yes, several, and yes, they are a nice drive, HOWEVER!have you driven a recent evora? its not that bad... it failed (if you could get round the styling) because of the horrendous build quality of the LE models. its reputation was dead in minutes.
i was locked in one on my test drive ... i had to get out via a window ffs!
they are not a £60+K car, no matter how much you talk them up.
my daily hack is cheaper, faster, more practical, and as a daily hack, an Evora is simply not in the running.
Yes, it *might* be faster round a track (although that would be interesting to try) but as I don't have my daily hack as a trackday tool, what's the point?
If I want a fast trackday car, use an S1 Elise, it's faster, cheaper, and arguably, more fun.
The Evora is not fast enough to be a FAST sportscar for the road (Esprit's old place), so, the problem is what exactly is the market for the Evora? (and PLEASE DON'T mention the 911)
now, leaving aside my personal preferences, they have NOT sold, so you need to face facts.
Edited by Scuffers on Monday 15th October 18:25
how much hp would it have to have to make it a £60+K car?
serious question ....
serious question ....
Scuffers said:
Yes, several, and yes, they are a nice drive, HOWEVER!
they are not a £60+K car, no matter how much you talk them up.
my daily hack is cheaper, faster, more practical, and as a daily hack, an Evora is simply not in the running.
Yes, it *might* be faster round a track (although that would be interesting to try) but as I don't have my daily hack as a trackday tool, what's the point?
If I want a fast trackday car, use an S1 Elise, it's faster, cheaper, and arguably, more fun.
so, the problem is what exactly is the market for the Evora? (and PLEASE DON'T mention the 911)
now, leaving aside my personal preferences, they have NOT sold, so you need to face facts.
they are not a £60+K car, no matter how much you talk them up.
my daily hack is cheaper, faster, more practical, and as a daily hack, an Evora is simply not in the running.
Yes, it *might* be faster round a track (although that would be interesting to try) but as I don't have my daily hack as a trackday tool, what's the point?
If I want a fast trackday car, use an S1 Elise, it's faster, cheaper, and arguably, more fun.
so, the problem is what exactly is the market for the Evora? (and PLEASE DON'T mention the 911)
now, leaving aside my personal preferences, they have NOT sold, so you need to face facts.
otolith said:
We already have Aston Martin and Jaguar to oversupply the market for British built land yachts, I'm not sure that Lotus have anything useful to bring to that marketplace.
I'm not saying its easy, and it isn't just Jag and Aston in that market. It is Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Maserati, Ferrari, Bentley and probably a few more. It's not easy but they all manage it. Lotus have got a brand and a schtick, but they don't use it to produce a car that has a chance of selling. It seems to me,looking from the outside of Lotus ownership, that they keep trying to reinvent the Sixties, and that is doomed to fail.Edited by cardigankid on Monday 15th October 18:34
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