Lotus:- The End?

[Throttle Body]

marshalla said:

Modern Lotuses do not, IMHO, follow the Chapman plan and were, mostly, track-day toys up until the Evora.

I agree with you there. Chapman was pushing Lotus upmarket with the later Elite and Esprit. Since his death, Lotus have headed downmarket (in price terms, at least). Were Chapman and Bahar right to head upmarket, or are hardcore Lotus fans right to want the pure and simple track focussed cars that have been quite successful in recent years?

In my view, Lotus has frittered away the success of the Elise by failing to invest in an Esprit. Perhaps that is too harsh. One way or another, they have been unable to fund development of a new Esprit.

[marshalla]

Throttle Body said:

I agree with you there. Chapman was pushing Lotus upmarket with the later Elite and Esprit. Since his death, Lotus have headed downmarket (in price terms, at least). Were Chapman and Bahar right to head upmarket, or are hardcore Lotus fans right to want the pure and simple track focussed cars that have been quite successful in recent years?

In my view, Lotus has frittered away the success of the Elise by failing to invest in an Esprit. Perhaps that is too harsh. One way or another, they have been unable to fund development of a new Esprit.

Chapman acknowledged, quite early on, that his business couldn't survive and grow based on 2-seaters alone, so he produced the Elan +2. Then the grand plan required a headline "supercar" and a practical GT, at the very least, to cater to both the performance market and the everyday user with kids (and a golf habit - hence the requirement for a boot that would accommodate two sets of clubs). The supercar was intended to get the headlines and create the halo, the GT was supposed to bring in the cash.

Lotus need both of these - something to bring attention to the marque and a product for those who need something more practical.

Myself - I'll stick with my Excel. Elise chassis cars are too uncomfortable for every day use and the Evora, great though it is, doesn't have the practicality that I need in an every day car (I've run an Excel for 8 years now, averaging at least 12k miles a year). That said, as soon as finances permit, I will get an Evora to use as a weekend car (but that's it).

[otolith]

Tuna said:

In both scenarios, the best you could hope for is that VAG buys the name and sticks Lotus badges on a rebodied Audi TT.

Most of Pistonheads would like nothing better - just imagine how good the texture of the dashboard would be.

[cardigankid]

Tuna said:

Throttle Body said:

cardigankid said:

Don't worry guys. If they go down the debt is wiped clean, and someone will buy the company, hopefully someone who can make something of it.

Yes. If they go bust, the factory and tooling are still there, but the debts are written off. Perhaps the Evora will sell quite well for £45k.

In your dreams. If they go bust, the factory and tooling would be sold off to repay their creditors. There is no reason for DRB to let them go bust, but they could choose to break up the company as a loss maker and sell off it's assets to various competitors. In both scenarios, the best you could hope for is that VAG buys the name and sticks Lotus badges on a rebodied Audi TT. There is absolutely no reason for Lotus to remain a going concern if DRB don't support it fully.

Factories in East Anglia are ten a penny, and who wants the tooling for a load of cars which didn't make money the first time round? At worst you might get a company like Caterham who start building rebranded Elises and Exiges for hard core enthusiasts, which is their true market. Is that a bad thing? In any event, all of that is as nothing to the Lotus brand. The soul is immortal. It will be reincarnated. Nothing surer. It might be nice to have Hethel, and lets face it, its b all good to anyone else, but it isn't essential.

Look what Ford and Tata have done with Jaguar, and what VW have done with Lamborghini and Bentley. That isn't badge engineering. The reality is that Lotus, like AM, does need a big brother in the motor industry to share technology, and DRB isn't it.

[RYH64E]

cardigankid said:

Factories in East Anglia are ten a penny, and who wants the tooling for a load of cars which didn't make money the first time round? At worst you might get a company like Caterham who start building rebranded Elises and Exiges for hard core enthusiasts, which is their true market. Is that a bad thing? In any event, all of that is as nothing to the Lotus brand. The soul is immortal. It will be reincarnated. Nothing surer. It might be nice to have Hethel, and lets face it, its b all good to anyone else, but it isn't essential.

Look what Ford and Tata have done with Jaguar, and what VW have done with Lamborghini and Bentley. That isn't badge engineering. The reality is that Lotus, like AM, does need a big brother in the motor industry to share technology, and DRB isn't it.

It will depend upon the terms of the debt, what guarantees have been given, and by whom. I would be amazed if there is no security other than Lotus assets, the parent company will most likely have given guarantees of some kind.

[Toaster]

Bitofbully said:

I think you're over-reacting.

A Lotus is a pretty focused sports car, but not one which a majority of people will want to drive on a daily basis.

Erm The Evora is an everyday sports car as is a Z4, Porsch Audi TT I drove mine home last night near emptyish roads it was bliss I was thinking about some of the comments on here and had a chuckle to myself as to the blind bias of comments. The sad thing is that most haven't a clue how good these cars are nor how to run a business. Lotus is struggling and may or may not survive poor management maybe maybe not maybe its market conditions maybe DB undermined confidence perhaps he should have been Head of Marketing with a robust CEO and COO to guide him but people on here are second guessing and condemning yet most wont buy a lotus, have never owned a lotus, dislike lotus.

Some on here refer to Colin Chapman's days and vision with rose tinted glasses, the cars in those days broke down and were generally unreliable but were fantastic fun.

The Elise/Exige/Europa cars are fantastic the Elise and Exige are great high day sunnyday cars but with an air of practicality some will find they can use everyday, in part this applied to the Europa some on here just thinks its a revised VX220 erm.....no it was better finished and kitted out and it has a fairly practical boot.

The Evora is something else it handles like a Lotus should, it is quite quick and whilst I understand people saying they want more power can this really be used safely by most of the average drives on the road...Even the NA Evora can only be fully exploited on the track.

Criticism of it being a 2+2 is mad truly mad if it was just a two seater Lotus would have been criticised by 'you lot'. Had it been a true four seater.....well again there would have been criticism for not being 'True' and a re-hash of something else, the we get the criticism of the shape fffs its certainly different to your astons Audi's and mundanoes, "Should" it have been styled more aggressively such as the Mansory body well maybe maybe not if its too aggressive females tend not to like it and often just think a car with aggressive styling is just an extension of a guys..........

I Have an Evora it works I can put a weeks shopping in the boot it goes faster than I dare drive it on the road, it cruises well and hit the sport button and it changes its personality, would I buy another yes I would, you can stick the porsche where the sun doesnt shine its not a bad car but its not a brand I want to be seen in and the latest comment on piston heads was that "the most popular sports car among women is ... the Porsche 911" http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... Again underlying girls are not fans of aggressive styling, so you guys thinking the Mansory bodywork would save Lotus may want to reflect on that.
So all you ladies out there go and buy your porches, Erm sorry to all you guys who are told by your wives and GF's to buy a Porsche or the only way you can get the other half to agree to a sports car is to buy one.

I am off now in my Evora for a meeting and on the way home pick up some shopping.......


I truly hope Lotus survive even if its to save us from Global domination of VAG Ford and Tata etc, I don't think there are many if any business analysts on this thread, there are just regurgitated opinions it will be interesting to see how the DRB plans unfold and wish them and all at Hethel the very best

Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 17th October 09:55

Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 17th October 09:58

[skwdenyer]

Toaster said:

people on here are second guessing and condemning yet most wont buy a lotus, have never owned a lotus, dislike lotus.

But those people are Lotus' target market - the 99.999% of the car-buying population who don't / won't buy Lotus.

Porsche were once in the same boat, as were Aston, Lamborghini, and many others. I don't advocate throwing out the baby with the bath water, but equally preaching only to the choir is - arguably - part of what got Lotus into this mess in the first place.

[bobo]

toaster whats your car background?

Toaster said:

Erm The Evora is an everyday sports car as is a Z4, Porsch Audi TT I drove mine home last night near emptyish roads it was bliss I was thinking about some of the comments on here and had a chuckle to myself as to the blind bias of comments. The sad thing is that most haven't a clue how good these cars are nor how to run a business. Lotus is struggling and may or may not survive poor management maybe maybe not maybe its market conditions maybe DB undermined confidence perhaps he should have been Head of Marketing with a robust CEO and COO to guide him but people on here are second guessing and condemning yet most wont buy a lotus, have never owned a lotus, dislike lotus.

Some on here refer to Colin Chapman's days and vision with rose tinted glasses, the cars in those days broke down and were generally unreliable but were fantastic fun.

The Elise/Exige/Europa cars are fantastic the Elise and Exige are great high day sunnyday cars but with an air of practicality some will find they can use everyday, in part this applied to the Europa some on here just thinks its a revised VX220 erm.....no it was better finished and kitted out and it has a fairly practical boot.

The Evora is something else it handles like a Lotus should, it is quite quick and whilst I understand people saying they want more power can this really be used safely by most of the average drives on the road...Even the NA Evora can only be fully exploited on the track.

Criticism of it being a 2+2 is mad truly mad if it was just a two seater Lotus would have been criticised by 'you lot'. Had it been a true four seater.....well again there would have been criticism for not being 'True' and a re-hash of something else, the we get the criticism of the shape fffs its certainly different to your astons Audi's and mundanoes, "Should" it have been styled more aggressively such as the Mansory body well maybe maybe not if its too aggressive females tend not to like it and often just think a car with aggressive styling is just an extension of a guys..........

I Have an Evora it works I can put a weeks shopping in the boot it goes faster than I dare drive it on the road, it cruises well and hit the sport button and it changes its personality, would I buy another yes I would, you can stick the porsche where the sun doesnt shine its not a bad car but its not a brand I want to be seen in and the latest comment on piston heads was that "the most popular sports car among women is ... the Porsche 911" http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... Again underlying girls are not fans of aggressive styling, so you guys thinking the Mansory bodywork would save Lotus may want to reflect on that.
So all you ladies out there go and buy your porches, Erm sorry to all you guys who are told by your wives and GF's to buy a Porsche or the only way you can get the other half to agree to a sports car is to buy one.

I am off now in my Evora for a meeting and on the way home pick up some shopping.......


I truly hope Lotus survive even if its to save us from Global domination of VAG Ford and Tata etc, I don't think there are many if any business analysts on this thread, there are just regurgitated opinions it will be interesting to see how the DRB plans unfold and wish them and all at Hethel the very best

Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 17th October 09:55

Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 17th October 09:58

[Tuna]

skwdenyer said:

But those people are Lotus' target market - the 99.999% of the car-buying population who don't / won't buy Lotus.

I guess the big problem is how do you change their minds?

There are a lot of advocates of producing the best car possible. Which unfortunately is a completely different car depending who's talking. You end up with an impossible feature list, and the classic company disaster of the engineers going off for a few years, spending a few million and returning with a car that cannot meet everyone's expectations.

Then Bahar's solution was to reinvent the company, distance itself from the old brand and try to convince customers that this was something new. I guess his argument was that the perception of what Lotus was was more damaging to company sales than the actual cars.

Personally, I feel that you can't change people's minds if they have no chance of actually experiencing the cars. What they produce doesn't have to be 110% perfect, but it does have to be put before enough customers for some of them to choose to buy.

It's completely unclear what DRB's strategy is. They initially gave the impression that they were going to go for a back to business approach, making Lotus stable and getting on with producing cars. However, this messing around with bank loans and suppliers suggests that they can't manage even that.

[Toaster]

[quote=bobo]toaster whats your car background? [quote=Toaster]

Brought many, Built some, crashed some, wrecked some, repaired some, enjoyed most.....pretty average really and the reason for asking is?

[WayneB]

Tuna said:

skwdenyer said:

But those people are Lotus' target market - the 99.999% of the car-buying population who don't / won't buy Lotus.

I guess the big problem is how do you change their minds?

Not with loads of silly propaganda, press releases etc.

You build a great product that all of the car mags, enthusiasts etc rave about and want, the sales come from that.

Porsche understand that, good product engineering and understated promotion get the job done for them.

I still think the Evora had a great launch and press etc., it wasnt until Bahar panned it and showed "his" new Lotuses and destroyed the established dealer network that the sales of it plummeted,he sacrificed the poor thing to make himself and "the plan"look good.

Idiot.

[1point7bar]

DRB Hicom builds Passats for Volkswagen.

The engineering might of VW is available to DRB.

Long term structural advances in a global market would be almost glacial and outside the timeframe reference of MSM.

[The Pits]

Porsche understand that 'prestige' car buyers are shallow and total badge snobs.

90% of expensive cars are bought for showing off. Most spend their days in London - lots of spectators, zero driving pleasure.

Something Bahar was quite well attuned to. His pretentious magazines, £1000 carbon fibre humidors and aspirational lifestyle dreams managed to turn my stomach but they would probably have worked wonders with a wider audience. Most Porsche buyers would be embarassed to be seen in Lotus. That isn't cured by better products. Right now a 458 with a lotus badge would be gathering dust in the showroom alongside the rest.

Depending on your priorities the Elise is already better than a Boxster and the Evora is hugely prefereable to me than a 911, it also offers the same performance and practicality (2+2) for far less money. The 991 is a £100k car these days. But where they really lack is in the ability to impress the neighbours. The image problem is much harder to fix and takes a lot longer. People still bang on about Alfa's rusting for crying out loud!

Culling the dealer network and having a small number of very swanky showrooms strategically placed around the country would be a start. I'll buy anything Lotus produces from a rotten shed so they don't have to worry about me. But they've got a lot of work to do to get a wider audience interested. I do get this. Most people who buy an expensive car want to feel they've 'made it'. A porsche showroom with its aloof salesmen and icy germanic atmosphere is great at making you feel like this is no place for poor or people. This is where people who've 'made it' go. So you better not scrimp on the extras = more profit for germany.

The only time I can remember when porsche were struggling was in the early 90's when they fell out of favour with the city. For a very brief but glorious time no-one wanted to be seen dead in a 911. They mostly bought TVRs instead. Almost impossible to imagine now but Peter Wheeler was able to create a whole generation of models and bespoke engines with the proceeds. What happened next isn't the point. It's just an example of how crucial image is to extravagant purchases.

There was no change in the quality of either porsche's products or TVR's when it happened. Only image. A 'yuppie' could be a real hairy chested bloke again. All he needed was a TVR.

Sadly I think Lotus would need a similar seismic mood-change against porsche for them to benefit, but it's not enough just for them to focus on the product. You need sausage and sizzle.

[EK993]

The Pits said:

Porsche understand that 'prestige' car buyers are shallow and total badge snobs.

90% of expensive cars are bought for showing off. Most spend their days in London - lots of spectators, zero driving pleasure.

Something Bahar was quite well attuned to. His pretentious magazines, £1000 carbon fibre humidors and aspirational lifestyle dreams managed to turn my stomach but they would probably have worked wonders with a wider audience. Most Porsche buyers would be embarassed to be seen in Lotus. That isn't cured by better products. Right now a 458 with a lotus badge would be gathering dust in the showroom alongside the rest.

Depending on your priorities the Elise is already better than a Boxster and the Evora is hugely prefereable to me than a 911, it also offers the same performance and practicality (2+2) for far less money. The 991 is a £100k car these days. But where they really lack is in the ability to impress the neighbours. The image problem is much harder to fix and takes a lot longer. People still bang on about Alfa's rusting for crying out loud!

Culling the dealer network and having a small number of very swanky showrooms strategically placed around the country would be a start. I'll buy anything Lotus produces from a rotten shed so they don't have to worry about me. But they've got a lot of work to do to get a wider audience interested. I do get this. Most people who buy an expensive car want to feel they've 'made it'. A porsche showroom with its aloof salesmen and icy germanic atmosphere is great at making you feel like this is no place for poor or people. This is where people who've 'made it' go. So you better not scrimp on the extras = more profit for germany.

The only time I can remember when porsche were struggling was in the early 90's when they fell out of favour with the city. For a very brief but glorious time no-one wanted to be seen dead in a 911. They mostly bought TVRs instead. Almost impossible to imagine now but Peter Wheeler was able to create a whole generation of models and bespoke engines with the proceeds. What happened next isn't the point. It's just an example of how crucial image is to extravagant purchases.

There was no change in the quality of either porsche's products or TVR's when it happened. Only image. A 'yuppie' could be a real hairy chested bloke again. All he needed was a TVR.

Sadly I think Lotus would need a similar seismic mood-change against porsche for them to benefit, but it's not enough just for them to focus on the product. You need sausage and sizzle.

This absolutely 100% accurately sums up the situation.

Building a car that enthusiasts rave about, or that corners and outperforms a Porsche won't generate sales - other than to a limited audience who really care about that stuff. There really isn't enough of you in that segment to be meaningful

Pits is right, building a car that appeals to the car snobs is how big number sales are made. Make people feel they are buying into an exclusive club that confirms their wealth and status in life (even if in reality they have none / very little).

Shallow? Yes absolutely. Reality? Unfortunately yes most definitely.

[skwdenyer]

WayneB said:

I still think the Evora had a great launch and press etc., it wasnt until Bahar panned it and showed "his" new Lotuses and destroyed the established dealer network that the sales of it plummeted,he sacrificed the poor thing to make himself and "the plan"look good.

You and I will have to disagree. I'd been eagerly waiting to see the new Lotus. And then I saw it. Oh dear. No amount of press raving about how it drove could, I'm afraid, get me past the aesthetics. There's something about it, in an as-launched configuration, that - to me - is 'just wrong', especially the IMHO amateur-night treatment of the air inlet vents, and the slightly cramped proportions - could it really not have been 6 inches longer without the engineering team walking out in disgust at the waste?

The same goes for the interior; there's no point in building a wackily-shaped dash if you can only afford an off-the-shelf stereo / sat nav set-up; it just looks bad.

[bobo]

well why don't they just do that first and then we can actually find out for once?

i would bet my coulo it would generate sales and in significant numbers. i don't know a recent lotus product that actually outperforms a porsche, do you? the v6 exige maybe the first but who knows, i'm still waiting for mine to turn up!

EK993 said:

Building a car that enthusiasts rave about, or that corners and outperforms a Porsche won't generate sales .

Edited by bobo on Thursday 18th October 13:46

[Hedgerley]

bobo said:

well why don't they just do that first and then we can actually find out for once?

i would bet my coulo it would generate sales and in significant numbers. i don't know a recent lotus product that actually outperforms a porsche, do you? the v6 exige maybe the first but who knows, i'm still waiting for mine to turn up!

EK993 said:

Building a car that enthusiasts rave about, or that corners and outperforms a Porsche won't generate sales .

Edited by bobo on Thursday 18th October 13:46

We will need to check out next week's Autocar. Its their annual handling test which last year was won by the Cayman R. This year Lotus are fielding the Exige S according to the promo in this weeks mag.

[bobo]

Hedgerley said:

We will need to check out next week's Autocar. Its their annual handling test which last year was won by the Cayman R. This year Lotus are fielding the Exige S according to the promo in this weeks mag.

hedgerley ... that's the most positive post on this thread so far ! thanks

Edited by bobo on Thursday 18th October 18:30

[EvoraEvora]

One of the biggest problems facing Lotus is their current customer base - they have the money generally to buy a secondhand Lotus but not a new one - as Lotus move upmarket and more expensive they had to look elsewhere for punters, that part of the DB vision I signed up to, but not his method of product tomorrow.. By the look of Harry's EVO article Lotus were onto a winner with the new Esprit, why didn't they concentrate on this instead of spreading the jam so thinly across a future range??

[LaurasOtherHalf]

EvoraEvora said:

One of the biggest problems facing Lotus is their current customer base - they have the money generally to buy a secondhand Lotus but not a new one

could be true, certainly sums me up anyway. mind you lotus seem to be doing a fine ob of either

A/subsadising the second hand market

or

B/ devaluing the second hand market

by constantly drip feeding second hand "ex management" cars into the market