Will Lotus cars make it to 2015?

[Tuna]

WayneB said:

I think the New NSX will be a huge success for Honda (Acura)over here in North America, Honda will devote its mega resorces to making sure its nigh on perfect as they do on all of their product line.

How successful was the original NSX? I was under the impression it didn't sell that well worldwide.

WayneB said:

Most of the intelegent car enthusiasts I know have lost all faith in Lotus over the last 3 years,

Over the last three years? Lotus haven't had a meaningful presence in America for the last couple of decades. The Evora has struggled for the many reasons discussed in other threads, so on the whole I don't think Lotus' reputation has changed much (at all). In America it remains an obscure European brand that very few people have heard of. The cars they make have been irrelevant to the US since the heydays of the Esprit.

WayneB said:

Me, I dont plan on spending $240k on any car, so count me out.

The Esprit was always a halo car. Merely trying to match the bog-standard 911 would leave Lotus as a mid-range player that's outperformed by 'hot' versions of other manufacturers cars. Given their reputation has always been about the engineering that goes into their machines, a halo car needs to be at the top of Porsche's range, or in the sort of territory that the MP4-12C and 458 occupy.

The GT3 RS4 is £130K, the MP4-12C is £170K, the Gallardo is £140+ so the new Esprit was always going to be in that territory. It really shouldn't come as a surprise.

[otolith]

I think ultimately the peacocks will almost always choose Ferrari or Lamborghini. So the question is, do you try to pick up the crumbs from their table, or do you choose more sober styling and aim to pick up those who find the more extravagantly styled options a little vulgar. It seems that McLaren chose the latter route. It will be interesting to see which way the Esprit goes when it finally emerges.

[Tuna]

bertie said:

Evora is a great car, but it's priced wrong.
At £40k I can see it, at £65k it's nudging up against Porsche 911s which have had how much cpent developing them? No way it can compete as an overall package.


All IMHO obviously...

The argument that the Evora should be priced at 40K is quite ridiculous. The Audi TT-RS is £49K for the cheaper model. Which do you think is the better sports car?

As for the Porsche, you're comparing the one of most expensive Evoras with the cheapest 911 and there's still nearly 10K's difference. Given the legendary Porsche options list price hike, you're certainly paying more for the 'overall package'.

[otolith]

Tuna said:

The argument that the Evora should be priced at 40K is quite ridiculous. The Audi TT-RS is £49K for the cheaper model. Which do you think is the better sports car?.

Or an M3 priced at double what a basic 3-series coupe can be profitably sold for. Like I said, I don't understand how people judge value for money, but "German" and "quality interior" seem to trump all other considerations.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Brand new Porsche Boxster S from £45,500. That's the biggest single problem facing anyone who fancies a dabble in the sportscar busisness. Properly designed, properly engineered, properly built. What can you get from Lotus for that price?

[bertie]

Tuna said:

bertie said:

Evora is a great car, but it's priced wrong.
At £40k I can see it, at £65k it's nudging up against Porsche 911s which have had how much cpent developing them? No way it can compete as an overall package.


All IMHO obviously...

The argument that the Evora should be priced at 40K is quite ridiculous. The Audi TT-RS is £49K for the cheaper model. Which do you think is the better sports car?

As for the Porsche, you're comparing the one of most expensive Evoras with the cheapest 911 and there's still nearly 10K's difference. Given the legendary Porsche options list price hike, you're certainly paying more for the 'overall package'.

I still see the Evora as a Cayman competitor and the Esprit as a 911 competitor.

At £65k the Evora doesnt have rhe fit, finish, infotainment technology or frankly image to compete.

[bertie]

otolith said:

Tuna said:

The argument that the Evora should be priced at 40K is quite ridiculous. The Audi TT-RS is £49K for the cheaper model. Which do you think is the better sports car?.

Or an M3 priced at double what a basic 3-series coupe can be profitably sold for. Like I said, I don't understand how people judge value for money, but "German" and "quality interior" seem to trump all other considerations.

Because if you are making cars for use every day, day in day out, as opposed to weekend toys, interior quality , durability and useabilty matters

[Scuffers]

bertie said:

otolith said:

Tuna said:

The argument that the Evora should be priced at 40K is quite ridiculous. The Audi TT-RS is £49K for the cheaper model. Which do you think is the better sports car?.

Or an M3 priced at double what a basic 3-series coupe can be profitably sold for. Like I said, I don't understand how people judge value for money, but "German" and "quality interior" seem to trump all other considerations.

Because if you are making cars for use every day, day in day out, as opposed to weekend toys, interior quality , durability and useabilty matters

as do properly supported warentee's, reliable dealer networks, affordable service/parts costs etc.

[Tuna]

Scuffers said:

as do properly supported warentee's, reliable dealer networks, affordable service/parts costs etc.

The dealer network is possibly the biggest challenge that Lotus have to overcome. If you've a dealer within 45 mins drive, then it's an easy choice (for me at least).. an hour+ and you have to plan for service visits.

Past experience of warranty support, parts and service has been very positive for Lotus. They age well too - a ten year old Elise still goes for 7K+, whereas a 10 year old Boxter starts at under 5K

[otolith]

bertie said:

Because if you are making cars for use every day, day in day out, as opposed to weekend toys, interior quality , durability and useabilty matters

Sure, they're great commuter cars, but how good it is for commuting isn't the only determinant of what a car is worth.

How is an M3 possibly worth double a 320d?

[bertie]

otolith said:

Sure, they're great commuter cars, but how good it is for commuting isn't the only determinant of what a car is worth.

How is an M3 possibly worth double a 320d?

But that's the point, if you are spending £65k it needs to be able to commute as well as thril, Nd be durable.....etc

Ever driven an M3?

If I had to get rid of 5 of my cars and could only have one, it'd be the M3 as it does everything so well.

Would I spend an extra 10k over the M3 and have an Evora......sorry no.

[otolith]

For 45 grand, I'd rather have an Elise S and change than a Boxster S (and I bet Porsche sell virtually no S cars for so little once they've received "essential" options).

[bertie]

otolith said:

For 45 grand, I'd rather have an Elise S and change than a Boxster S (and I bet Porsche sell virtually no S cars for so little once they've received "essential" options).

To use everyday or as a weekend toy?

[otolith]

bertie said:

To use everyday or as a weekend toy?

To use for what I use my Elise for - it is my default car, but working from home, I don't commute in it. Would I buy an Elise to commute in? No. But nor would I buy a Boxster to commute in. One car solutions are always going to be suboptimal where sports cars are concerned, so for commuting on a 45k budget I would be looking at a used Lotus and a used automatic diesel saloon car.

[Tuna]

bertie said:

If I had to get rid of 5 of my cars and could only have one, it'd be the M3 as it does everything so well.

I'd always assumed the main target for something like the Evora would be the middle aged successful businessman, who'd likely as not have a 'sensible family car' that does the majority of the load lugging, and a nice car to drive to work and occasionally pick up the wife and kids. In that sort of arrangement, the sports car can be a little bit special and doesn't have to be an all rounder, or utterly practical, or particularly cheap to run.

[bertie]

Tuna said:

I'd always assumed the main target for something like the Evora would be the middle aged successful businessman, who'd likely as not have a 'sensible family car' that does the majority of the load lugging, and a nice car to drive to work and occasionally pick up the wife and kids. In that sort of arrangement, the sports car can be a little bit special and doesn't have to be an all rounder, or utterly practical, or particularly cheap to run.

I was answering the question on the M3.

I kind of know what you're saying, but that makes it a toy and is it special enough to be a weekend toy?

I thought the Evora was meant to be a practical everyday proposition, something that could be an only car. And as such I think the Cayman does it better.

Personaly I think Lotus need to focus on drivers cars for enthusiasts where you can get away with not matching the Germans on finish and durability, but that will mean they are second cars and there aren't many people who will spend £40k plus on a toy.

[Tuna]

bertie said:

I kind of know what you're saying, but that makes it a toy and is it special enough to be a weekend toy?

Sorry, I meant a two car family - where one partner has the family car and the other the sports car. One partner takes the kids to school and commutes in an estate/people carrier/range rover (depending on their tastes) and the other commutes in something less practical but a bit more fun. The sports car is still an every day car, but if you're in that sort of market it certainly isn't the only car on the drive.

[bertie]

Tuna said:

Sorry, I meant a two car family - where one partner has the family car and the other the sports car. One partner takes the kids to school and commutes in an estate/people carrier/range rover (depending on their tastes) and the other commutes in something less practical but a bit more fun. The sports car is still an every day car, but if you're in that sort of market it certainly isn't the only car on the drive.

Well whatever the target market was or is, one thing we do know is that for that car at that price, there isn't enough of them!

Lotus to me means affordable performance and drivers cars, slightly left field, a bit quirky, slightly flaky even, but great to drive.

They can't compete head on with Porsche, Ferrari , Lamborghini etc. IMHO

[Hedgerley]

You know all this talk of not being able to compete with Ferrari et al, particularly wrt to reliability and so on seems somewhat disingenuous. Look at what Maclaren has to do with the MP12 recently and I've just read that Ferrari is having to recall some of its 458s and Californias due to crankshafts being finished by an uncalibrated machine which could cause engine seizure.

None of them are perfect.

I run an 11 year old Esprit V8 with 61k on the clock. In the past 12 months and 7k miles I've put two new rear tyres on it. That's it. It's just passed its MOT needing only a couple of corroded brake lines replacing and a new top ball joint at the front. It's been totally reliable in 4 years of ownership and has never let me down.

[Scuffers]

Hedgerley said:

I run an 11 year old Esprit V8 with 61k on the clock. In the past 12 months and 7k miles I've put two new rear tyres on it. That's it. It's just passed its MOT needing only a couple of corroded brake lines replacing and a new top ball joint at the front. It's been totally reliable in 4 years of ownership and has never let me down.

yes, but I assume it's not your only car? (at 7K a year?)