Met Police Jaguar S Types
Discussion
Minsterjagman said:
No, all the Area Cars were automatic, all Traffic Cars were manual with no overdrive. Driving School cars could be fitted with either type of gearbox. They were all fitted with Dyna 4.09 (low Ratio ) differentials, which gave them very rapid acceleration, but a poor top speed, and awful fuel economy.
Aaah......that explains what my old man was going on about all those years ago, when going on about they weren't very fast, about the same as the 6/110's.....just.The technicality of the rear diff ratio wouldn't have been known to him, being a mere WO at the time, and as a teenager, I kept showing him period road tests of S-Types, and saying how can they have been that slow
Every day is a school day
I think the early batches of cars (the KYU ***D and maybe the 2nd NVB ***E batch) had the Powerlok diff's but later cars didn't? I know Dad said a lot of the drivers didn't like the S-Type's and preferred the 6/110's, as the Jag were too tail happy.
What a wonderful thread - where did the last hour go?
I've nothing to add beyond a couple of photos found after pondering what may have become of SUU491F:
Found here: http://www.jagstyperegister.com/carsparts.htm
These pictures are from 2012. A chassis number may yield better results as that's typically how US sales are recorded (through auctions etc.).
I've nothing to add beyond a couple of photos found after pondering what may have become of SUU491F:
Found here: http://www.jagstyperegister.com/carsparts.htm
These pictures are from 2012. A chassis number may yield better results as that's typically how US sales are recorded (through auctions etc.).
Edited by Dr G on Friday 20th October 18:05
Edited by Dr G on Tuesday 24th October 16:17
Dr G.
SUU491F has the chassis number 1B 8699BW, and the original engine number 7B 7983, which is certainly not fitted to it now, according to my records. If someone could find it's fate from that, then I would be very interested to hear from them.
Every Met S-type Jaguar that I have encountered was originally fitted with a Dyna 4.09 limited-slip differential, irrespective of production date, transmission type, or role, but then the crew were not paying for the petrol!
Jim is having a better look at KYU419D today, to see if she can be saved after all. Irrespective of the outcome, it will be offered for sale next spring, as a restoration project, in the hope that another enthusiast will take her on. Any Met-specific parts removed from it will be only those missing from SUU480F, and will be fitted to that car to help complete the restoration to service condition.
Photos to follow soon.
I heard the myth of the tail-happy S-Type from old R/T drivers when I was still young in service. Some would insist that they put a paving slab in the boot to keep the back wheels from overtaking the fronts on bends. I think that the combination of a powerful engine (compared with the old 6/110s), a low differential ratio, and a wet road, meant that if they kicked the car down on a bend in the wet, then the inevitable happened. More a case of getting used to a very different kind of car. Nobody else seems to have had this problem with these Jaguars, just some old Met R/T car drivers!
SUU491F has the chassis number 1B 8699BW, and the original engine number 7B 7983, which is certainly not fitted to it now, according to my records. If someone could find it's fate from that, then I would be very interested to hear from them.
Every Met S-type Jaguar that I have encountered was originally fitted with a Dyna 4.09 limited-slip differential, irrespective of production date, transmission type, or role, but then the crew were not paying for the petrol!
Jim is having a better look at KYU419D today, to see if she can be saved after all. Irrespective of the outcome, it will be offered for sale next spring, as a restoration project, in the hope that another enthusiast will take her on. Any Met-specific parts removed from it will be only those missing from SUU480F, and will be fitted to that car to help complete the restoration to service condition.
Photos to follow soon.
I heard the myth of the tail-happy S-Type from old R/T drivers when I was still young in service. Some would insist that they put a paving slab in the boot to keep the back wheels from overtaking the fronts on bends. I think that the combination of a powerful engine (compared with the old 6/110s), a low differential ratio, and a wet road, meant that if they kicked the car down on a bend in the wet, then the inevitable happened. More a case of getting used to a very different kind of car. Nobody else seems to have had this problem with these Jaguars, just some old Met R/T car drivers!
Edited by Minsterjagman on Sunday 22 October 10:59
As requested here are some pictures of KYU 419D. The car is in fairly rough shape, it’s going to want sills and arch work, the o/s front chassis leg above the front subframe is fairly bad. It’s got some rot in the floors, this is just from a quick look over. There will obviously be more.
It is definitely saveable and I have restored more rotten cars than this in the past. But it’s a lot of work, along with the fact it’s been sat for probably 40 years it is a going to need everything.
Anyway here are a quick few pictures of the car.
And some pictures I have of the car when in service
It is definitely saveable and I have restored more rotten cars than this in the past. But it’s a lot of work, along with the fact it’s been sat for probably 40 years it is a going to need everything.
Anyway here are a quick few pictures of the car.
And some pictures I have of the car when in service
Minsterjagman said:
I heard the myth of the tail-happy S-Type from old R/T drivers when I was still young in service. Some would insist that they put a paving slab in the boot to keep the back wheels from overtaking the fronts on bends. I think that the combination of a powerful engine (compared with the old 6/110s), a low differential ratio, and a wet road, meant that if they kicked the car down on a bend in the wet, then the inevitable happened. More a case of getting used to a very different kind of car. Nobody else seems to have had this problem with these Jaguars, just some old Met R/T car drivers!
I think, its the only area/traffic car that the Met ever had that had a LSD, and as you say, its likely that this was the problem, especially on the auto's with that very low diff ratio, and was exactly as you describe.You can't de-clutch a LSD in an auto..........not that Hendon would have taught that anyway.
Jim-mbo4v said:
As requested here are some pictures of KYU 419D. The car is in fairly rough shape, it’s going to want sills and arch work, the o/s front chassis leg above the front subframe is fairly bad. It’s got some rot in the floors, this is just from a quick look over. There will obviously be more.
It is definitely saveable and I have restored more rotten cars than this in the past. But it’s a lot of work, along with the fact it’s been sat for probably 40 years it is a going to need everything.
Anyway here are a quick few pictures of the car.
And some pictures I have of the car when in service
It reminds me of the green S-Type that languished at the Great Central Railway in Loughborough for some years...It is definitely saveable and I have restored more rotten cars than this in the past. But it’s a lot of work, along with the fact it’s been sat for probably 40 years it is a going to need everything.
Anyway here are a quick few pictures of the car.
And some pictures I have of the car when in service
There's definitely something very rakish about wire wheels on an S-Type!
Jim-mbo4v said:
As requested here are some pictures of KYU 419D. The car is in fairly rough shape, it’s going to want sills and arch work, the o/s front chassis leg above the front subframe is fairly bad. It’s got some rot in the floors, this is just from a quick look over. There will obviously be more.
It is definitely saveable and I have restored more rotten cars than this in the past. But it’s a lot of work, along with the fact it’s been sat for probably 40 years it is a going to need everything.
Anyway here are a quick few pictures of the car.
And some pictures I have of the car when in service
The old girl is in a bit of a state, but it lead a hard life in service being a Driving School car.It is definitely saveable and I have restored more rotten cars than this in the past. But it’s a lot of work, along with the fact it’s been sat for probably 40 years it is a going to need everything.
Anyway here are a quick few pictures of the car.
And some pictures I have of the car when in service
It would be great if someone did save her though and returned her to her Hendon heyday as in those photo's taken on the old RAF Hendon runway.......complete with the L plates fitted
Minsterjagman said:
Dr G.
SUU491F has the chassis number 1B 8699BW, and the original engine number 7B 7983, which is certainly not fitted to it now, according to my records. If someone could find it's fate from that, then I would be very interested to hear from them.
Did you see Pg1 of this thread ....SUU491F has the chassis number 1B 8699BW, and the original engine number 7B 7983, which is certainly not fitted to it now, according to my records. If someone could find it's fate from that, then I would be very interested to hear from them.
Webserve00 said:
Good morning from Charlotte, North Carolina. ... My car is SUU 491F ...
I think that we all have read about what has been previously posted regarding this car. Clark Westneet, from the USA, posted about the purchase of SUU491F, and it's restoration, about eighteen months ago, but, sadly passed away shortly afterwards, according to the International Jaguar S-Type Register chairman, David Reilly. Sad to add that Mr Reilly has also died since that time. It is the fate of the car since all this happened that we are trying to ascertain.
Edited by Minsterjagman on Tuesday 24th October 06:02
Edited by Minsterjagman on Tuesday 24th October 06:11
aeropilot said:
The old girl is in a bit of a state, but it lead a hard life in service being a Driving School car.
It would be great if someone did save her though and returned her to her Hendon heyday as in those photo's taken on the old RAF Hendon runway.......complete with the L plates fitted
Driving school cars had a charmed life in comparison to operational ones! It would be great if someone did save her though and returned her to her Hendon heyday as in those photo's taken on the old RAF Hendon runway.......complete with the L plates fitted
They didn’t do high mileages and were maintained meticulously, and most importantly driven correctly!
A lot of driving school cars were cascaded down to traffic units/divisions after 18/24 months or so with plain cars frequently being liveried for operational use
The cars might come out the driving school with only 20k on them and they’d bang a big mileage on them operationally before being disposed of
The photographs that Jim has posted show SUU480F as purchased, all very shiny on top but rather rusty underneath, and civilianised throughout. Next, with dummy grille in place of fog lamp, and bonnet mascot removed, then at the welder's, with the front suspension completely rebuilt. Note replacement front crossmember under the car. Finally with blue and floodlights fitted. The interior now has correct door cards, and mostly satin black woodwork. KYU419D will supply some parts to complement the interior, with other parts still left to find.
As regards Driving School cars being refitted for operational use, all I can say is that I have owned two ex-Driving School S-Types, (NVB269E, and now KYU419D), and neither has shown any sign of such a conversion. The only other known surviving Hendon S-Type is SUU491F, which has had much mention recently on these pages. According to the late owner, that car too, showed no such evidence of holes in the roof panel, or radio equipment being fitted at a later date. The owner did, however carry out such work himself, the result resembling an Area Car. My service was much later (1979-2011), so I am not qualified to comment on earlier practices. I did three driving courses at Hendon. We would regularly do 250-300 miles PER DAY. On the advanced course, the cars were driven to the absolute maximum, when safe to do so. The thirty, forty, fifty and sixty mph limits had to be observed, but de-restricted dual carriageways and motorways were usually driven at the vehicle's maximum speed, but only ,I must stress, when it was safe to do so. Anything less, and the instructor would put on a very loud yawn, meaning "I'm bored, go faster!" I do not remember any Driving School cars being put out for operation use in my service, unless they were converted into "Q" cars, as they were usually painted any colour other than those used on operational marked cars, at that time.
As regards Driving School cars being refitted for operational use, all I can say is that I have owned two ex-Driving School S-Types, (NVB269E, and now KYU419D), and neither has shown any sign of such a conversion. The only other known surviving Hendon S-Type is SUU491F, which has had much mention recently on these pages. According to the late owner, that car too, showed no such evidence of holes in the roof panel, or radio equipment being fitted at a later date. The owner did, however carry out such work himself, the result resembling an Area Car. My service was much later (1979-2011), so I am not qualified to comment on earlier practices. I did three driving courses at Hendon. We would regularly do 250-300 miles PER DAY. On the advanced course, the cars were driven to the absolute maximum, when safe to do so. The thirty, forty, fifty and sixty mph limits had to be observed, but de-restricted dual carriageways and motorways were usually driven at the vehicle's maximum speed, but only ,I must stress, when it was safe to do so. Anything less, and the instructor would put on a very loud yawn, meaning "I'm bored, go faster!" I do not remember any Driving School cars being put out for operation use in my service, unless they were converted into "Q" cars, as they were usually painted any colour other than those used on operational marked cars, at that time.
Edited by Minsterjagman on Wednesday 25th October 19:09
Edited by Minsterjagman on Friday 27th October 06:58
Earthdweller said:
aeropilot said:
The old girl is in a bit of a state, but it lead a hard life in service being a Driving School car.
It would be great if someone did save her though and returned her to her Hendon heyday as in those photo's taken on the old RAF Hendon runway.......complete with the L plates fitted
Driving school cars had a charmed life in comparison to operational ones! It would be great if someone did save her though and returned her to her Hendon heyday as in those photo's taken on the old RAF Hendon runway.......complete with the L plates fitted
They didn’t do high mileages and were maintained meticulously, and most importantly driven correctly!
A lot of driving school cars were cascaded down to traffic units/divisions after 18/24 months or so with plain cars frequently being liveried for operational use
The cars might come out the driving school with only 20k on them and they’d bang a big mileage on them operationally before being disposed of
I remember one of my Dad's colleagues talking about one of the DS 2.5Pi's being written off during his Class 1 course.
aeropilot said:
We clearly know very different era's, as back in 70's all the driving school cars did decent miles, I remember my Dad talking about multiple hundred per day and a lot of the P6 and 2.5Pi's used were all non-service colours. I certainly remember seeing an almond, a brown and a green P6, and a dark red 2.5 Pi at Bushy Sports club car park when in for lunchbreak during courses, all sans hub caps.
I remember one of my Dad's colleagues talking about one of the DS 2.5Pi's being written off during his Class 1 course.
My point still remains I remember one of my Dad's colleagues talking about one of the DS 2.5Pi's being written off during his Class 1 course.
School cars are used Monday-Friday daytimes generally (some night runs) and are warmed up properly, driven quickly but properly and are really only driven max 5-6 hours a day
They are washed daily, fully inspected daily and defected at the slightest issue. They also have enough of them that they aren’t used everyday, so whilst they might on an adv course go to Norfolk and back in a day it’s not brutal driving
Contrast that with an operational car that is ragged from
Cold daily, used 24/7 and only stops rolling when it’s broken/crashes
An operational car could easily do 2k+ a week, whereas a school car would struggle to do more than 1k
The school has a mix of vehicles from response cars, vans, carriers upwards not just advanced cars and some of the training roles don’t require much mileage .. hence cars getting cascaded out
Of course occasionally some get bent, but way less than on division
Let's not get too worried about which type of car did the most miles, or was most likely to get crunched, they all lead pretty hard lives while in service, which makes their survival, especially after 55 plus years, all the more remarkable!
While we are on the subject of vehicle mileages, I could share one memory with you. I once drove over to Hampton Traffic Garage and workshops ("TDT"), to take a driver to collect a brand new Rover 827 Area Car. This must have been about 1990. This car was posted to Esher as "Victor Four". It covered Esher, East and West Molesey and Cobham, (VH, VE, and VC) which, together, had the reputation of being about the largest ground in the Met. Exactly twenty months later, we took that same car back to Hampton for disposal with 110,000+ miles on the clock. Ignoring some downtime for service and repair, that is an average of 5,500 miles per month.
This car had an "H" prefix, and had been very reliable. It's replacement "K" prefix Rover 827 went through three gearboxes in the first six months. Some cars are good, some less so. Mind you, that car was run-in for exactly a quarter of a mile before we got a good call, and thrashed it all the way to Oxshott, on the blues and twos!
Sad to say, Esher, Molesey and Cobham were all ceded to Surrey Police on 1st April 2001, along with all the other outer divisions which went to the respective county forces because they were not part of London boroughs.
While we are on the subject of vehicle mileages, I could share one memory with you. I once drove over to Hampton Traffic Garage and workshops ("TDT"), to take a driver to collect a brand new Rover 827 Area Car. This must have been about 1990. This car was posted to Esher as "Victor Four". It covered Esher, East and West Molesey and Cobham, (VH, VE, and VC) which, together, had the reputation of being about the largest ground in the Met. Exactly twenty months later, we took that same car back to Hampton for disposal with 110,000+ miles on the clock. Ignoring some downtime for service and repair, that is an average of 5,500 miles per month.
This car had an "H" prefix, and had been very reliable. It's replacement "K" prefix Rover 827 went through three gearboxes in the first six months. Some cars are good, some less so. Mind you, that car was run-in for exactly a quarter of a mile before we got a good call, and thrashed it all the way to Oxshott, on the blues and twos!
Sad to say, Esher, Molesey and Cobham were all ceded to Surrey Police on 1st April 2001, along with all the other outer divisions which went to the respective county forces because they were not part of London boroughs.
Edited by Minsterjagman on Friday 27th October 06:54
Minsterjagman said:
Let's not get too worried about which type of car did the most miles, or was most likely to get crunched, they all lead pretty hard lives while in service, which makes their survival, especially after 55 plus years, all the more remarkable!
While we are on the subject of vehicle mileages, I could share one memory with you. I once drove over to Hampton Traffic Garage and workshops ("TDT"), to take a driver to collect a brand new Rover 827 Area Car. This must have been about 1990. This car was posted to Esher as "Victor Four". It covered Esher, East and West Molesey and Cobham, (VH, VE, and VC) which, together, had the reputation of being about the largest ground in the Met. Exactly twenty months later, we took that same car back to Hampton for disposal with 110,000+ miles on the clock. Ignoring some downtime for service and repair, that is an average of 5,500 miles per month.
This car had an "H" prefix, and had been very reliable. It's replacement "K" prefix Rover 827 went through three gearboxes in the first six months. Some cars are good, some less so. Mind you, that car was run-in for exactly a quarter of a mile before we got a good call, and thrashed it all the way to Oxshott, on the blues and twos!
Sad to say, Esher, Molesey and Cobham were all ceded to Surrey Police on 1st April 2001, along with all the other outer divisions which went to the respective county forces because they were not part of London boroughs.
We had an 827 of similar vintage that was always broken! While we are on the subject of vehicle mileages, I could share one memory with you. I once drove over to Hampton Traffic Garage and workshops ("TDT"), to take a driver to collect a brand new Rover 827 Area Car. This must have been about 1990. This car was posted to Esher as "Victor Four". It covered Esher, East and West Molesey and Cobham, (VH, VE, and VC) which, together, had the reputation of being about the largest ground in the Met. Exactly twenty months later, we took that same car back to Hampton for disposal with 110,000+ miles on the clock. Ignoring some downtime for service and repair, that is an average of 5,500 miles per month.
This car had an "H" prefix, and had been very reliable. It's replacement "K" prefix Rover 827 went through three gearboxes in the first six months. Some cars are good, some less so. Mind you, that car was run-in for exactly a quarter of a mile before we got a good call, and thrashed it all the way to Oxshott, on the blues and twos!
Sad to say, Esher, Molesey and Cobham were all ceded to Surrey Police on 1st April 2001, along with all the other outer divisions which went to the respective county forces because they were not part of London boroughs.
Edited by Minsterjagman on Friday 27th October 06:54
Constantly back to Rover for mods/fixes and ended up with a boot full of electronics fitted by Rover to see what the issue was .. mainly chocolate brakes .. it was K371/317EYT I think (not sure, memory age fog)
It was replaced by a V6 Cavalier N826OUV which went for disposal at a similar age to the car you mention with 158k on it, probably because it was way more reliable
That was replaced by a V6 Vectra for a while and then a 3.2 MV6 Omega S674RLB which was pretty tidy for an RT car even though I wrecked it with 40 miles on the clock having just picked it up brand new at TDJ chasing a Cosworth Granada that had just done an armed robbery in Harlow!
It was away for 2 months then on its first day back I was on nights and ended up ramming a suicidal misper to a standstill who trying to drive the wrong way round the M25 with it
I was the only person to drive it operationally at that point and both times I (justifiably) smashed it up
Happy times
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