The Range Rover Classic thread

[DonkeyApple]

NomduJour said:

DonkeyApple said:

The Brooklands body kit, the LSE and the soft dash models are probably the ones not being bought by investors at the moment as they are all the last ones and just look too new

Dislike Brooklands, dislike soft-dash, but LSEs are the absolute pinnacle of desirability and collectibility!

(Not that I have a vested interest or anything).

I always thought mine looked ungainly. The extra length makes the proportions just a little off.

I used to use a driver and it was certainly a nice place to sit in the back. Couldn't do that with a normal one.

[V8 Fettler]

CAPP0 said:

This has been on my mind. It's not a bad spark, but it isn't as fat as a fat thing.

Everything is new. The distributor, the cap & rotor arm, the leads (Bosch), the coil. Possibly not the plugs themselves, although I'm fairly sure I have a receipt for some at some point; that's easily rectified.

Usually, per the videos I have posted, I can eventually get it to fire up, but not today (or yesterday).

NGK plugs were £20 delivered for a set of eight when I last bought some, replacement would eliminate an unknown. When the thing finally started, did it run OK? Failing ignition amp will lead to poor starting and then fail further to no starting.

[RicksAlfas]

I think a new amp is worth trying. As I mentioned I put a brand new dizzy on mine, but the amp was faulty. It would start (just) but couldn't take any load. A new amp sorted it.

Some good info here, plus a fairly hairy sounding igntion test!
http://www.g33.co.uk/ignition_system.htm

One thing I thought last night. Is the centre contact still present in the dizzy cap? They can fall out if you've been popping the cap on and off.

[Paracetamol]

DonkeyApple said:

Looks great. Rust free I take it?

Seems to be so far tailagte is immaculate and a peer under the car shows it it to be in great shape...Its a Japan car and is currently in the UAE. The side stripes were a bit scabby but on removal they took some lacquer with them and so the top of the car is being repainted. I am having the new coach line painted in to provide a better finish. And also a wheel refurb as the current ones are a different grey to the body. So far I have found a complete tool kit and unused spare (which is Winchester Grey). The car appears to have been very well looked after but I have yet to drive it any distance. Only missing item is the rear shelf. All else (esp seats and sunroof) are operating well.

[CAPP0]

RicksAlfas said:

I think a new amp is worth trying. As I mentioned I put a brand new dizzy on mine, but the amp was faulty. It would start (just) but couldn't take any load. A new amp sorted it.

Some good info here, plus a fairly hairy sounding igntion test!
http://www.g33.co.uk/ignition_system.htm

One thing I thought last night. Is the centre contact still present in the dizzy cap? They can fall out if you've been popping the cap on and off.

Thanks Rick (and V8). I'll order replacement plugs and an amp this week and see what we get.

Further back in the thread (someone mentioned it, I need to find it) there was a comment about cats and removal and resistors. Mine has some sort of fancy exhaust on it, tubular headers and a noisy s/s exhaust (it sounds nice in a V8 way but doesn't suit the car, it'll be coming off if I keep it). Anyway, the lambda plugs/leads are tied away loose in the engine bay. Ages ago I read something which suggested that wasn't an issue and that they didn't all have cats/lambda anyway? Or could that also be a key? Are there resistors which plug into the lambda leads? It has run without these - in fact when I bought it, it was driven home to mine (after we got it started), about 15 miles, and made that journey OK. Nothing's changed since, except some time passing!

[HarryW]

CAPP0 said:

RicksAlfas said:

I think a new amp is worth trying. As I mentioned I put a brand new dizzy on mine, but the amp was faulty. It would start (just) but couldn't take any load. A new amp sorted it.

Some good info here, plus a fairly hairy sounding igntion test!
http://www.g33.co.uk/ignition_system.htm

One thing I thought last night. Is the centre contact still present in the dizzy cap? They can fall out if you've been popping the cap on and off.

Thanks Rick (and V8). I'll order replacement plugs and an amp this week and see what we get.

Further back in the thread (someone mentioned it, I need to find it) there was a comment about cats and removal and resistors. Mine has some sort of fancy exhaust on it, tubular headers and a noisy s/s exhaust (it sounds nice in a V8 way but doesn't suit the car, it'll be coming off if I keep it). Anyway, the lambda plugs/leads are tied away loose in the engine bay. Ages ago I read something which suggested that wasn't an issue and that they didn't all have cats/lambda anyway? Or could that also be a key? Are there resistors which plug into the lambda leads? It has run without these - in fact when I bought it, it was driven home to mine (after we got it started), about 15 miles, and made that journey OK. Nothing's changed since, except some time passing!

There is a 'Tune' resistor in the loom of a TVR and I assume it's standard across the 14CUX(?) set up. The different resistances select the different default maps for fuelling dependant on installation.
If you have a CAT map selected but no cats fitted then it will run very rich, surprisingly the over fuelling is required to cool the CAT! The resistor should be in a coloured plastic sleeve on the loom going into the ECU, I recall the CAT one is green. I'm sure a quick google should reveal the various types available.

Edited to add there's quite a bit of information here...
http://www.britishv8.org/articles/rover-14cux-efi....

Edited by HarryW on Monday 9th January 14:44

[DonkeyApple]

CAPP0 said:

Thanks Rick (and V8). I'll order replacement plugs and an amp this week and see what we get.

Further back in the thread (someone mentioned it, I need to find it) there was a comment about cats and removal and resistors. Mine has some sort of fancy exhaust on it, tubular headers and a noisy s/s exhaust (it sounds nice in a V8 way but doesn't suit the car, it'll be coming off if I keep it). Anyway, the lambda plugs/leads are tied away loose in the engine bay. Ages ago I read something which suggested that wasn't an issue and that they didn't all have cats/lambda anyway? Or could that also be a key? Are there resistors which plug into the lambda leads? It has run without these - in fact when I bought it, it was driven home to mine (after we got it started), about 15 miles, and made that journey OK. Nothing's changed since, except some time passing!

That was me as some people lose the cats but forget to change the resistor in the loom (white to green or vice versa) so the ECU then hugely over fuels and the plugs go phut and the car stops giving a good enough spark to fire.

I've no idea if leaving the lamda sensors in the line but loose causes any issues. I would have thought that you'd be getting a really bad signal from it that will have an impact on the running of the car but might be unrelated to the core issue.

Re the ignition amp, I thought you'd replaced that already?

[CAPP0]

DonkeyApple said:

That was me as some people lose the cats but forget to change the resistor in the loom (white to green or vice versa) so the ECU then hugely over fuels and the plugs go phut and the car stops giving a good enough spark to fire.

I've no idea if leaving the lamda sensors in the line but loose causes any issues. I would have thought that you'd be getting a really bad signal from it that will have an impact on the running of the car but might be unrelated to the core issue.

Re the ignition amp, I thought you'd replaced that already?

The lambda sensors aren't there, just the cables and the (3-pin?) plugs lying loose-ish in the engine bay. I don't know when the exhaust was changed, it's probably in the sheaf of receipts, I'll check later.

Haven't got round to the ignition amp yet, partly because the whole distrib was new, partly because Simon BBC told me not to and partly because I haven't got round to it yet But I'll order one this week, that will be the first thing to change, and a new set of decent plugs. NGK usually come up recommended unless anyone has a better suggestion (but not the £20 each ones!).

[DonkeyApple]

CAPP0 said:

DonkeyApple said:

That was me as some people lose the cats but forget to change the resistor in the loom (white to green or vice versa) so the ECU then hugely over fuels and the plugs go phut and the car stops giving a good enough spark to fire.

I've no idea if leaving the lamda sensors in the line but loose causes any issues. I would have thought that you'd be getting a really bad signal from it that will have an impact on the running of the car but might be unrelated to the core issue.

Re the ignition amp, I thought you'd replaced that already?

The lambda sensors aren't there, just the cables and the (3-pin?) plugs lying loose-ish in the engine bay. I don't know when the exhaust was changed, it's probably in the sheaf of receipts, I'll check later.

Haven't got round to the ignition amp yet, partly because the whole distrib was new, partly because Simon BBC told me not to and partly because I haven't got round to it yet But I'll order one this week, that will be the first thing to change, and a new set of decent plugs. NGK usually come up recommended unless anyone has a better suggestion (but not the £20 each ones!).

Have a check on the loom to confirm what colour the resistor is as you do need to change it if the lamda isn't being used.

Green tune is for decat map. If the car originally had a cat then it will be white if it hadn't been changed. Costs pennies to sort. But to be honest, I'd prefer to fit the lamda back into the system. I think you can even bodge it by just plugging a sensor back into the loom and not necessarily fitting it to the exhaust but I'm not sure.

There is a chance that if it wasn't changed then it could have been over fuelling and buggering the plugs?

Edited by DonkeyApple on Monday 9th January 16:37

[CAPP0]

Yes, it'll be interesting to see when the PO had the exhaust done.

Where are the resistors located? Close to the ECU? That just has the big clipped-in plug, under the seat. Would I have to trace the loom back to find the resistor or i it somewhere more obvious?

We shall crack this!!

[RicksAlfas]

CAPPO, would yours have had a catalyst?
When did they become standard fit?

The tuning resistor is connected with a blue plug near the ECU under the seat.
It looks like this:



White one is 3900ohms for cars WITH cats fitted for Europe 3.9.
Green is 470ohms for cars WITHOUT cats fitted Europe, 3.9.

You can have lambda bosses welded into your current manifolds if you want.
The standard ones are quite restrictive. (But we might be getting ahead of things a bit...).

[CAPP0]

I have absolutely no idea whether it would have had cats or not from new? It's on a private plate but according to the docs I have would have been on an H plate to start with. First service at 972 miles in Feb 1991, so it was probably first reg late 1990 - built mid-1990??

Under the bonnet, towards the back of the engine bay, there are two round plugs with 3 round pins. I'm sure I read somewhere that those are for the lambda sensors, but as to whether it actually ever had any, I don't know. But would LR have installed a loom with lambda connectors if there were no cats?

The exhaust and manifolds were fitted Oct 2013 at 101k miles, so it's done about 9k miles since then. From all the dealer/service receipts I have, he had it looked at for poor starting/running several times in the 12 months after that, until I bought it which was at the end of 2014 (scary, I thought I'd had it about a year, it's over 2 years!).

I'll check under the seat for the resistor and report back.

I'll have to write a history from the service receipts, it has had such a lot of things thrown at it, you wouldn't believe. Frequent four-figure invoices.

Edited by CAPP0 on Monday 9th January 21:57

[DonkeyApple]

The '89 change over from the 3.5 to the 3.9 had cats as an optional extra. Lord knows who would have chosen them before they were a legal requirement?

So they probably had the wiring in place in the new loom for the 3.9.

Odds have to favour the car not having cats originally you would have thought?

[CAPP0]

Well, I found this little badger hiding under the driver's seat.





Which seems to be green. Which seems to be the colour it should be with no cats. So it's not that then. Another momentary excitement dashed!

[DonkeyApple]

If you've checked that it has compression, it's getting air and there is fuel there then it just has to be the spark. Surely?

At that point, if it's never started then you'd start to think it was the timing that was wrong but you've said it will start eventually so it must be a small component slightly intermittent fault or just a feeble spark that eventually gives one just large enough to ignite the fuel?

When it does run does it feel spritely or down on power? If the latter could that suggest bad but not critical timing, such as too much retardation? Maybe they had to pull the timing back to bodge the LPG to work and it stems from that?

Is it easy enough to advance the timing a few degrees to check?

[RicksAlfas]

No, but it's another thing ticked off the list! Those brown relays are the ones I was on about. I think one is fuel and one is the main relay for the ECU. Worth checking they are not growing green mould underneath.

[xjsracer44]

I've got a 1992 3.9 Catalyst car that I just bought that's just sitting at the moment. Cappo you are welcome to use it to swap parts over one by one to identify your issue if it would help, as as I took it for an MOT & even though it passed the emissions after I'd put an old battery on it, it failed miserably on underbody rot, so it's just sitting outside at the moment.

Let me know if that's of interest.

[DonkeyApple]

RicksAlfas said:

No, but it's another thing ticked off the list! Those brown relays are the ones I was on about. I think one is fuel and one is the main relay for the ECU. Worth checking they are not growing green mould underneath.

The fact that it does eventually start just suggests to me that timing and the dizzy is OK. I mentioned last week the ignition amp, it could be that that's failing and leading to a feeble spark.

How does it run when it does get going? And does it drink more than or the same as Olly Reed did?

All I can think is that it's a feeble spark or drowning in fuel.

[CAPP0]

DonkeyApple said:

If you've checked that it has compression, it's getting air and there is fuel there then it just has to be the spark. Surely?

At that point, if it's never started then you'd start to think it was the timing that was wrong but you've said it will start eventually so it must be a small component slightly intermittent fault or just a feeble spark that eventually gives one just large enough to ignite the fuel?

When it does run does it feel spritely or down on power? If the latter could that suggest bad but not critical timing, such as too much retardation? Maybe they had to pull the timing back to bodge the LPG to work and it stems from that?

Is it easy enough to advance the timing a few degrees to check?

That’s interesting, because when I did drive it, yes, it did seem down on power. I had a mate follow me around on one trip out (in case of breakdown!) in a 4.0 P38 and with me flat out, he said he wasn’t even trying.

Adjusting the timing is irritatingly awkward, because the distributor clamp bolt on mine is invisibly concealed beneath the alternator and AC compressor bundle. I’m almost certain the timing was pretty close. I guess it could even have slipped – certainly a free check anyway.

It has fuel and a spark in some measure. I should stick my hand over the intake when it’s turning over and make sure there’s some vacuum there – a bit extreme but it’s getting to that.

RicksAlfas said:

No, but it's another thing ticked off the list! Those brown relays are the ones I was on about. I think one is fuel and one is the main relay for the ECU. Worth checking they are not growing green mould underneath.

I did have them out when I had a concerted effort to get it sorted previously, but I can check again. I mentioned some pages back, I have a copy of Rovergauge which I’ve had hooked up and all seemed to be OK. But as with everything else, definitely worth a check.

xjsracer44 said:

I've got a 1992 3.9 Catalyst car that I just bought that's just sitting at the moment. Cappo you are welcome to use it to swap parts over one by one to identify your issue if it would help, as as I took it for an MOT & even though it passed the emissions after I'd put an old battery on it, it failed miserably on underbody rot, so it's just sitting outside at the moment.

Let me know if that's of interest.

That’s really good of you, thank you. I might take you up on that for the relays mentioned above and perhaps the MAF sensor, if yours is good? OK to PM you?

[DonkeyApple]

Here's another thought. LPG needs different timing than petrol doesn't it? In the ideal world should the map be changed when the fuel switches? In cheap systems I bet they just bodge the timing between the two to just get a best fit.

My understanding is that LPG burns slower than petrol so needs quite a big advance to give more time to burn. I've never used LPG and don't know much at all about it but it's a different fuel so will burn differently and so require different timing to petrol.

Does your car start on LPG? What if the install was done to favour starting on LPG as it allowed for the best timing bodge while running under load between the two fuel types?