'in need of mild restoration' - post your favourites!
Discussion
I've always been a sucker for an old car ad saying 'in need of light restoration' or 'partially restored, just needs finished' or 'great condition, needs recommissioning'. It's always so tempting when something that was once very expensive (or might still be very expensive if it were in A1 condition) pops up on ebay for pocket change.
It could be the bargain of the century, or more likely, a brilliant way to burn through unjustifiably large amounts of cash. Last week, I was chatting with a friend who loves old sailing boats like this. The old adage that sailing is like 'standing under a cold shower, fully dressed, tearing up $100 bills' came up. He reckons that cars can't come close to a boat for slowly but relentlessly emptying your wallet. Au contraire, says I with a knowing smile: 'Ever owned a classic car?' He then asked me to show him a couple of examples to prove my point. I set out a couple of criteria to make it analogous to an old boat (something I've also got experience of);
- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
- theoretically, you should be able to get most of your money back if you sell it, but you know in your heart there is SFA chance of that happening
- it must have some beauty or soul that captivates you enough to continue pouring money into a seemingly bottomless pit.
Granted, he's working in a different world to me when it comes to disposable income, but I reckon the comparison still holds true.
To help prove it, I submit the below, and invite you to do the same, ideally including a guess at the cost of restoration, a year's potential borkage costs, and final value on the open market.
The Alfa Montreal. Currently on ebay for 4k, but likely to go for at least twice that. A beautiful car, an awesome sounding engine, but an easy 15-20k work to get it running (at all, forget 'reliably' or any of that chat) and up to 20k bork factor within 5,000 miles with an open market value for the finished item of 25-30k. I would have it in a heartbeat!
A Porsche 912 Not just the asthmatic brother of the 911 with rickets, this one's also a left hooker. The seller says "The car will need restoration but its an excellent base.....will need some rist repair (sic)". currently on ebay for 11k, I'd guess on another 10k to get it into useable condition and resprayed, minimal borkage for a year's running (as long as nothing with a 'Porsche' stamp on it breaks), but lucky to see 15-18k back. Despite it being a very expensive Beetle with a heavy body, I still want it.
And last but not least, the restorer's best friend:
an E-Type Apparently it's in need of 'light restoration'. Suppose it depends on how you define 'light'.... But one owner, dry stored for the last 25 years, matching numbers and good colours make me drool. On the flipside, resto costs will be punitive, potential borkage is eye-watering, but man maths says that you're more likely to see your money back with this car than most other E Types because it's original. But probably not. But there's only one way to find out....
It could be the bargain of the century, or more likely, a brilliant way to burn through unjustifiably large amounts of cash. Last week, I was chatting with a friend who loves old sailing boats like this. The old adage that sailing is like 'standing under a cold shower, fully dressed, tearing up $100 bills' came up. He reckons that cars can't come close to a boat for slowly but relentlessly emptying your wallet. Au contraire, says I with a knowing smile: 'Ever owned a classic car?' He then asked me to show him a couple of examples to prove my point. I set out a couple of criteria to make it analogous to an old boat (something I've also got experience of);
- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
- theoretically, you should be able to get most of your money back if you sell it, but you know in your heart there is SFA chance of that happening
- it must have some beauty or soul that captivates you enough to continue pouring money into a seemingly bottomless pit.
Granted, he's working in a different world to me when it comes to disposable income, but I reckon the comparison still holds true.
To help prove it, I submit the below, and invite you to do the same, ideally including a guess at the cost of restoration, a year's potential borkage costs, and final value on the open market.
The Alfa Montreal. Currently on ebay for 4k, but likely to go for at least twice that. A beautiful car, an awesome sounding engine, but an easy 15-20k work to get it running (at all, forget 'reliably' or any of that chat) and up to 20k bork factor within 5,000 miles with an open market value for the finished item of 25-30k. I would have it in a heartbeat!
A Porsche 912 Not just the asthmatic brother of the 911 with rickets, this one's also a left hooker. The seller says "The car will need restoration but its an excellent base.....will need some rist repair (sic)". currently on ebay for 11k, I'd guess on another 10k to get it into useable condition and resprayed, minimal borkage for a year's running (as long as nothing with a 'Porsche' stamp on it breaks), but lucky to see 15-18k back. Despite it being a very expensive Beetle with a heavy body, I still want it.
And last but not least, the restorer's best friend:
an E-Type Apparently it's in need of 'light restoration'. Suppose it depends on how you define 'light'.... But one owner, dry stored for the last 25 years, matching numbers and good colours make me drool. On the flipside, resto costs will be punitive, potential borkage is eye-watering, but man maths says that you're more likely to see your money back with this car than most other E Types because it's original. But probably not. But there's only one way to find out....
The Montreal, an electrician's nightmare. A friend has one and it has sat in his garage since I've known him, and that's over 10 years. It's difficult to see the Jaguar properly but it looks as if someone has taken a grinder to the front NS wing for some reason, but overall she looks solid but well used, judging by the leather. I'll watch that price with interest.
I love the Jag, but looking at it dispassionately (and I believe you're a bit of an E-Type fiend from your username;)) how much cash do you reckon it would take to get that car into useable condition? Not fully restored, just enough to pass a MOT and take you out for a pleasant day's summer driving without the expectation you'd be returning home on the back of a truck.....
Unfortunately, how long is a piece of string? If you look closely at the photos of the off side rear, the arch and the wing seem pretty scabby, the front N/S wing is rusty (and under the bonnet needs close inspection too judging by the photo), and that leads me to ask what she is like underneath. I suggest you have a look at the thread on the current rebuild of my roadster and what we found when it was taken apart. On the surface she wasn't bad, but when dismantled we found rust. In your case here what if the rust means new cills, inner and outer? What if the floors are rusty? What about suspension mounts and the A-frames that hold the engine? The condition of the driver's seat gives the impression that this a fairly high mileage car although the sides of the buckets aren't worn, which is usually an indication of use. Unless you are a limbo dancer, you rub them with your backside as you get in and out.
The car needs a good inspection, but if I were to take a stab in the dark I'd probably say in the region of £20,000 including a repaint. But that could be woefully underestimated unless you are doing it yourself, which is a completely different matter. I do like his comment "light panel replacement". A bonnet is now around £5,000!
The car needs a good inspection, but if I were to take a stab in the dark I'd probably say in the region of £20,000 including a repaint. But that could be woefully underestimated unless you are doing it yourself, which is a completely different matter. I do like his comment "light panel replacement". A bonnet is now around £5,000!
spitsfire said:
I've always been a sucker for an old car ad saying 'in need of light restoration' or 'partially restored, just needs finished' or 'great condition, needs recommissioning'. It's always so tempting when something that was once very expensive (or might still be very expensive if it were in A1 condition) pops up on ebay for pocket change.
It could be the bargain of the century, or more likely, a brilliant way to burn through unjustifiably large amounts of cash. Last week, I was chatting with a friend who loves old sailing boats like this. The old adage that sailing is like 'standing under a cold shower, fully dressed, tearing up $100 bills' came up. He reckons that cars can't come close to a boat for slowly but relentlessly emptying your wallet. Au contraire, says I with a knowing smile: 'Ever owned a classic car?' He then asked me to show him a couple of examples to prove my point. I set out a couple of criteria to make it analogous to an old boat (something I've also got experience of);
- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
- theoretically, you should be able to get most of your money back if you sell it, but you know in your heart there is SFA chance of that happening
- it must have some beauty or soul that captivates you enough to continue pouring money into a seemingly bottomless pit.
Granted, he's working in a different world to me when it comes to disposable income, but I reckon the comparison still holds true.
To help prove it, I submit the below, and invite you to do the same, ideally including a guess at the cost of restoration, a year's potential borkage costs, and final value on the open market.
The Alfa Montreal. Currently on ebay for 4k, but likely to go for at least twice that. A beautiful car, an awesome sounding engine, but an easy 15-20k work to get it running (at all, forget 'reliably' or any of that chat) and up to 20k bork factor within 5,000 miles with an open market value for the finished item of 25-30k. I would have it in a heartbeat!
A Porsche 912 Not just the asthmatic brother of the 911 with rickets, this one's also a left hooker. The seller says "The car will need restoration but its an excellent base.....will need some rist repair (sic)". currently on ebay for 11k, I'd guess on another 10k to get it into useable condition and resprayed, minimal borkage for a year's running (as long as nothing with a 'Porsche' stamp on it breaks), but lucky to see 15-18k back. Despite it being a very expensive Beetle with a heavy body, I still want it.
And last but not least, the restorer's best friend:
an E-Type Apparently it's in need of 'light restoration'. Suppose it depends on how you define 'light'.... But one owner, dry stored for the last 25 years, matching numbers and good colours make me drool. On the flipside, resto costs will be punitive, potential borkage is eye-watering, but man maths says that you're more likely to see your money back with this car than most other E Types because it's original. But probably not. But there's only one way to find out....
Completely agree, BUT, you are looking at it from the point of view of expecting to make a return.It could be the bargain of the century, or more likely, a brilliant way to burn through unjustifiably large amounts of cash. Last week, I was chatting with a friend who loves old sailing boats like this. The old adage that sailing is like 'standing under a cold shower, fully dressed, tearing up $100 bills' came up. He reckons that cars can't come close to a boat for slowly but relentlessly emptying your wallet. Au contraire, says I with a knowing smile: 'Ever owned a classic car?' He then asked me to show him a couple of examples to prove my point. I set out a couple of criteria to make it analogous to an old boat (something I've also got experience of);
- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
- theoretically, you should be able to get most of your money back if you sell it, but you know in your heart there is SFA chance of that happening
- it must have some beauty or soul that captivates you enough to continue pouring money into a seemingly bottomless pit.
Granted, he's working in a different world to me when it comes to disposable income, but I reckon the comparison still holds true.
To help prove it, I submit the below, and invite you to do the same, ideally including a guess at the cost of restoration, a year's potential borkage costs, and final value on the open market.
The Alfa Montreal. Currently on ebay for 4k, but likely to go for at least twice that. A beautiful car, an awesome sounding engine, but an easy 15-20k work to get it running (at all, forget 'reliably' or any of that chat) and up to 20k bork factor within 5,000 miles with an open market value for the finished item of 25-30k. I would have it in a heartbeat!
A Porsche 912 Not just the asthmatic brother of the 911 with rickets, this one's also a left hooker. The seller says "The car will need restoration but its an excellent base.....will need some rist repair (sic)". currently on ebay for 11k, I'd guess on another 10k to get it into useable condition and resprayed, minimal borkage for a year's running (as long as nothing with a 'Porsche' stamp on it breaks), but lucky to see 15-18k back. Despite it being a very expensive Beetle with a heavy body, I still want it.
And last but not least, the restorer's best friend:
an E-Type Apparently it's in need of 'light restoration'. Suppose it depends on how you define 'light'.... But one owner, dry stored for the last 25 years, matching numbers and good colours make me drool. On the flipside, resto costs will be punitive, potential borkage is eye-watering, but man maths says that you're more likely to see your money back with this car than most other E Types because it's original. But probably not. But there's only one way to find out....
You don't buy a new car with that expectation, in fact you buy it KNOWING that you are simply throwing money away, at least there is some doubt with the classic purchase lol!!
Re. "light restoration" this is utter crap
There is no such thing, it either needs restoring or it doesn't. Light restoration translates directly to "bodge"
Do it once, properly
retropower said:
Completely agree, BUT, you are looking at it from the point of view of expecting to make a return.
You don't buy a new car with that expectation, in fact you buy it KNOWING that you are simply throwing money away, at least there is some doubt with the classic purchase lol!!
Re. "light restoration" this is utter crap
There is no such thing, it either needs restoring or it doesn't. Light restoration translates directly to "bodge"
Do it once, properly
Not quite so sure about that... I suppose it depends on how you define 'restoration'. For example, my TR6 was a ground up take it all apart and put it all back together job, whereas my Quattro needs some attention, but certainly doesn't need ripping to pieces, just some bits need tidying up and or replacing, which is not the same as bodging.You don't buy a new car with that expectation, in fact you buy it KNOWING that you are simply throwing money away, at least there is some doubt with the classic purchase lol!!
Re. "light restoration" this is utter crap
There is no such thing, it either needs restoring or it doesn't. Light restoration translates directly to "bodge"
Do it once, properly
I'm with Yertis on this one. 'Light restoration' is a perfectly valid description.
Maintain originality, fix what's broken and get the car out on the road to enjoy.
There seems to be a current trend towards re-manufacturing everything and I can't help thinking that it sometimes rags the soul out of the car. If you want a new one - buy a new one!
Mind you, I don't want to detract from OP's original proposition about the utter carp which passes for 'artistic licence' in classic car adverts!
Maintain originality, fix what's broken and get the car out on the road to enjoy.
There seems to be a current trend towards re-manufacturing everything and I can't help thinking that it sometimes rags the soul out of the car. If you want a new one - buy a new one!
Mind you, I don't want to detract from OP's original proposition about the utter carp which passes for 'artistic licence' in classic car adverts!
How about this one - do I win? Okay, there is no pretence that it is for "light" resto'...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Cortina-Mk2-Estate-...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Cortina-Mk2-Estate-...
Cheap Triumph Stag anyone? Fresh MOT & Tyres, "This one will drive you home and back again." And it's Magenta! A great car you can drive whilst pouring all of your money into improving.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1974-TRIUMPH-STAG-AUTO-/...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1974-TRIUMPH-STAG-AUTO-/...
glazbagun said:
Cheap Triumph Stag anyone? Fresh MOT & Tyres, "This one will drive you home and back again." And it's Magenta! A great car you can drive whilst pouring all of your money into improving.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1974-TRIUMPH-STAG-AUTO-/...
Am I missing something here? That Stag looks quite nice?http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1974-TRIUMPH-STAG-AUTO-/...
Pistom said:
Am I missing something here? That Stag looks quite nice?
It does! But why would it be £4K (less than half the price of the cheapest on PH) if it wasn't a rolling restoration?From the OP:
- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
- theoretically, you should be able to get most of your money back if you sell it, but you know in your heart there is SFA chance of that happening
- it must have some beauty or soul that captivates you enough to continue pouring money into a seemingly bottomless pit.
52classic said:
I'm with Yertis on this one. 'Light restoration' is a perfectly valid description.
Maintain originality, fix what's broken and get the car out on the road to enjoy.
There seems to be a current trend towards re-manufacturing everything and I can't help thinking that it sometimes rags the soul out of the car. If you want a new one - buy a new one!
Mind you, I don't want to detract from OP's original proposition about the utter carp which passes for 'artistic licence' in classic car adverts!
I agree in principle, but I spend my working days properly restoring cars that have had years of "light restoration" work.Maintain originality, fix what's broken and get the car out on the road to enjoy.
There seems to be a current trend towards re-manufacturing everything and I can't help thinking that it sometimes rags the soul out of the car. If you want a new one - buy a new one!
Mind you, I don't want to detract from OP's original proposition about the utter carp which passes for 'artistic licence' in classic car adverts!
Each owner of the car in question has carried out their little set of jobs, addressing the problems as they saw them, then they later ALL come to a head and the car is pretty much terminally ruaty.
There are undoubtably a few cars that can benefit from light restoration, usually dry country cars. Anything with any noticeable amount of rust almost certainly needs stripping to a bare 'shell, as there is always much more hiding!
We are currently working on a mercedes 250sl pagoda which has evidently had numerous paint tidy ups, rust repairs etc etc, and now needs at least 400 hours of metalwork alone to get it back as it should be. It would probably only require half that if the previous "repairs" hadn't been carried out! every patch repair has turned a single panel repair into a 3 panel job. The easiest restorations are always the ones which have not already been worked on in terms of metalwork or paintwork!!
I know its not straightforward as quite possibly the car may not exist if the repairs hadn't been done, but if one is planning on keeping a car, doing a series of "light restorations" is economic nonsense
As for Stags...........gawd no!!
A while back there was a guy advertising on ebay an exchange 'shell service for £3500 painted iirc....
Lets see, typical car destined for a 'shell exchange will need £1.5 to £2k on panels, then paint and prep materials will be around £1k, so that leaves £500 to £1000 for everything else.......
I had to try and explain that to a prospective customer.
Would LOVE to see the standard of work being churned out there!!
A while back there was a guy advertising on ebay an exchange 'shell service for £3500 painted iirc....
Lets see, typical car destined for a 'shell exchange will need £1.5 to £2k on panels, then paint and prep materials will be around £1k, so that leaves £500 to £1000 for everything else.......
I had to try and explain that to a prospective customer.
Would LOVE to see the standard of work being churned out there!!
This is a thread made for me; I'd illustrate it from my own personal experience.
Spent twenty times that amount bringing it to a fit state as a daily driver.
Lots more about it here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
glazbagun said:
From the OP:
- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
Mitsubishi Shogun with a period BBR turbo conversion, bought off eBay (unseen) for £460 with a then current MoT (16 advisories though)- the cost of purchase must be massively outweighed by the cost of maintenance and restoration
Spent twenty times that amount bringing it to a fit state as a daily driver.
glazbagun said:
- theoretically, you should be able to get most of your money back if you sell it, but you know in your heart there is SFA chance of that happening
Current value: naff allglazbagun said:
- it must have some beauty or soul that captivates you enough to continue pouring money into a seemingly bottomless pit.
As far as I'm aware it's the only one left. Does that count?Lots more about it here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Pistom said:
Actually, looking at it closer, the rot in the A pillar says it all. The purple with black colour scheme looks good but never buy a car because you like the colour.
I wouldn't like to see what's under the oversills.
I took a Stag for a pre-sale inspection a couple of years ago. The owner had spent a silly amount of money restoring it four or five years earlier - it was an unusual spec, with a manual box and aircon - and it looked sensational. It had been maintained scrupulously by experts, but the engineer's report still found things wrong with it, most notable of which was the rust inside the chassis arms. Ouch. I wouldn't like to see what's under the oversills.
Even though I'm a sucker for a 'bargain', I'd run from a 4 grand Stag as fast as my legs could carry me. Screaming. And screaming some more. But still, I look and think '4 grand's not a lot of money. It's got a year's ticket. It's a funky colour, it's got a lovely little V8. How much could it actually cost me?'. The correct answer is 's
tloads'.A perfect example for this thread - Well done glazbagun!
Edited by spitsfire on Tuesday 3rd December 00:57
spitsfire said:
Even though I'm a sucker for a 'bargain', I'd run from a 4 grand Stag as fast as my legs could carry me. Screaming. And screaming some more. But still, I look and think '4 grand's not a lot of money. It's got a year's ticket. It's a funky colour, it's got a lovely little V8. How much could it actually cost me?'.
A perfect example for this thread - Well done Pistom!
Oi! I found it! A perfect example for this thread - Well done Pistom!
I think TurboBlue deserves a round of applause and probably a George Cross for his devotion to the cause, though. That build thread is eye watering! 
TurboBlue said:
I think that yesterday the BBR restoration reached that critical point where I had to decide that I was fully committed; the list of actual and potential concerns was and is growing each day but I am going to hold on
Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 3rd December 00:55
retropower said:
Completely agree, BUT, you are looking at it from the point of view of expecting to make a return.
You don't buy a new car with that expectation, in fact you buy it KNOWING that you are simply throwing money away, at least there is some doubt with the classic purchase lol!!
Re. "light restoration" this is utter crap
There is no such thing, it either needs restoring or it doesn't. Light restoration translates directly to "bodge"
Do it once, properly
Not really from the expectation of making a return on a car: I once thought that, but now I know better! It's more about kidding yourself that, at some level, the numbers can work. I've always defended classics from the naysayers because they don't really depreciate, which removes the biggest cost of car ownership, so you can theoretically run a 944 Turbo for 3 years for less than the cost of a new Focus. I still think this is (kind of) true, but it's really just an excuse to throw money at them! You don't buy a new car with that expectation, in fact you buy it KNOWING that you are simply throwing money away, at least there is some doubt with the classic purchase lol!!
Re. "light restoration" this is utter crap
There is no such thing, it either needs restoring or it doesn't. Light restoration translates directly to "bodge"
Do it once, properly
As for bodges; please don't knock the humble bodge. Some of my bodges have lasted for literally tens of thousands of miles. By and large, the rest of the car hasn't done so well! Any car that has a A1 condition value below 20k (think MGBs, any small chassis Triumph, 80's Porsches, early Golf GTIs, and so on) can't really justify a full restoration financially, so it's only love (and a desire to share your wealth with spanner-monkeys) that makes you do it. When you don't have the cash, you bodge it, enjoy it, and then hopefully sell it on to somebody who will have both the love and the requisite money to do a full resto. Preferably before the MOT runs out
Here's a good candidate for that - http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?267833-Mk1-G...TurboBlue - keep the faith! You will be rewarded by owning a unique car (and massive respect on PH). At least, when fixed up, the likelihood of serious borkage is minimal in something so tough! The same can't be said for a Stag, a Montreal, or an E-Type, however!
Retro - sorry if this thread is making your toes curl! I realised after I'd posted the above that you probably spend a fair bit of your working life patiently explaining this paradox to customers as they moan about the size of the bills
Retro - sorry if this thread is making your toes curl! I realised after I'd posted the above that you probably spend a fair bit of your working life patiently explaining this paradox to customers as they moan about the size of the bills
From the auctions, I'll add this one 1984 Mercedes 380sl
Yours for the bargain price of £2,912+premium. Worthy of adding here for the brilliantly disingenuous line in the description: "This SL presents an inexpensive opportunity to own an iconic Mercedes-Benz"
Inexpensive until you look behind any of the panels and find something like this
The blog on fighting this car's tin worm is pretty good, even if it comes as a bit of a shock to anybody who's ever said 'those old Merc R107s look like great value' www.r107restoration.blogspot.com
Yours for the bargain price of £2,912+premium. Worthy of adding here for the brilliantly disingenuous line in the description: "This SL presents an inexpensive opportunity to own an iconic Mercedes-Benz"
Inexpensive until you look behind any of the panels and find something like this
The blog on fighting this car's tin worm is pretty good, even if it comes as a bit of a shock to anybody who's ever said 'those old Merc R107s look like great value' www.r107restoration.blogspot.com
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