Ultra rare mk 1 Escort at upcoming auction
Discussion
aeropilot said:
Very unlikely.
Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
I agree entirely, BUT, your infering that the DVLA should have common sense Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
Mark A S said:
aeropilot said:
Very unlikely.
Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
I agree entirely, BUT, your infering that the DVLA should have common sense Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
Looking at the limited number of photos on Ebay I can already see several areas that would raise concerns about the originality of that car so I'm not at all surprised that the DVLA (and AVO Club) aren't accepting it as a genuine Mexico.
Sadly there are far too many "replicas" and look-alikes out there and, given the values nowadays, there's nothing worse than having to tell someone who has shelled out many £££ that what they have bought just isn't what they believe it to be (which seems to be happening more and more) and as such doesn't command the same value as the genuine article no matter how nice it is !
Sadly there are far too many "replicas" and look-alikes out there and, given the values nowadays, there's nothing worse than having to tell someone who has shelled out many £££ that what they have bought just isn't what they believe it to be (which seems to be happening more and more) and as such doesn't command the same value as the genuine article no matter how nice it is !
TaurusMexico said:
Looking at the limited number of photos on Ebay I can already see several areas that would raise concerns about the originality of that car so I'm not at all surprised that the DVLA (and AVO Club) aren't accepting it as a genuine Mexico.
Sadly there are far too many "replicas" and look-alikes out there and, given the values nowadays, there's nothing worse than having to tell someone who has shelled out many £££ that what they have bought just isn't what they believe it to be (which seems to be happening more and more) and as such doesn't command the same value as the genuine article no matter how nice it is !
Still worrying that bidding has reached over £15k and reserve no met, seems expensive for a fakeSadly there are far too many "replicas" and look-alikes out there and, given the values nowadays, there's nothing worse than having to tell someone who has shelled out many £££ that what they have bought just isn't what they believe it to be (which seems to be happening more and more) and as such doesn't command the same value as the genuine article no matter how nice it is !
aeropilot said:
Mark A S said:
aeropilot said:
Very unlikely.
Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
I agree entirely, BUT, your infering that the DVLA should have common sense Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
AceRockatansky said:
aeropilot said:
Mark A S said:
aeropilot said:
Very unlikely.
Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
I agree entirely, BUT, your infering that the DVLA should have common sense Once Type 49 service shell's went NLA a dealer would not have done a re-shell. In fact, I think non-Type 49 shells went NLA long before the Type 49 as the 2-door Type 49 was the in-demand shell for motorsport, so there was a decent batch of bare service shell's ran off the Halewood line for stock before Mk.1 production ended.
Many cars were re-shelled from decent used shell's in the late 70's and through the 80's. I knew someone with a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina in the early 80's, whose car had been wrapped around a tree in the mid 70's, and re-shelled with a nice 2-door GT shell he found. I know of at least two RS3100 Capri's (one crash damaged, one dissolved with rust) also re-shelled with mint GXL shell's back in the mid 80's.....and many AVO Escorts, some re-shelled more than once. DVLA didn't give stuff back then....and they shouldn't now in reality. As long as its not claimed to be the original shell it should matter. I know many AVO Escorts that have virtually every panel replaced in a rebuild, so what's the difference to that from using a better condition used shell?
Such is the nature of the beast as they say.
IIRC, this all started (with DVLA) as a result of one or more of those Argentinian replica Bugatti's passing through an big auction house and selling as the real thing, and other similar big bucks fakery......and the fall out soon rapidly rolls down hill to the more mundane sector of the market as a result.
At the current bid price it's not at all expensive....from the photos the shell looks good and you could easily spend £20k plus to get to that stage so anything less than that (with all the other bits included) is decent value for ANY Mk1 Escort nowadays.
It is still missing some potentially costly bits however so the rest of the build won't be a cheap affair....depending on what you do with it.
The problem will come with trying to get it registered as a "Historic Vehicle". In many ways, this would be an ideal canditate for doing some kind of resto-mod and not worrying about the value or historic status...but it seems that wasn't what the current owner (and seller) wanted.
It is still missing some potentially costly bits however so the rest of the build won't be a cheap affair....depending on what you do with it.
The problem will come with trying to get it registered as a "Historic Vehicle". In many ways, this would be an ideal canditate for doing some kind of resto-mod and not worrying about the value or historic status...but it seems that wasn't what the current owner (and seller) wanted.
WPA said:
TaurusMexico said:
Looking at the limited number of photos on Ebay I can already see several areas that would raise concerns about the originality of that car so I'm not at all surprised that the DVLA (and AVO Club) aren't accepting it as a genuine Mexico.
Sadly there are far too many "replicas" and look-alikes out there and, given the values nowadays, there's nothing worse than having to tell someone who has shelled out many £££ that what they have bought just isn't what they believe it to be (which seems to be happening more and more) and as such doesn't command the same value as the genuine article no matter how nice it is !
Still worrying that bidding has reached over £15k and reserve no met, seems expensive for a fakeSadly there are far too many "replicas" and look-alikes out there and, given the values nowadays, there's nothing worse than having to tell someone who has shelled out many £££ that what they have bought just isn't what they believe it to be (which seems to be happening more and more) and as such doesn't command the same value as the genuine article no matter how nice it is !
So much gets mixed up in these internet conversations. If a perfectly good 1300 is used why not move the trick Mex bits over retain the 1300 identity and enjoy…… why not….. because you can fleece twice the price by bending the rules and swapping vin plates and pretending it’s an AVO car.. These rules aren’t there to stop people enjoying these cars they are there to stop people getting ripped off.
The additional value of AVO cars is in the fact they are AVO cars.
Ford encouraged racers to reshell into later shells, rally cars were reshelled into service shells. Crashed cars in period were reshelled into service shells, crashed cars were reshelled into secondhand cars in period(really not sure of the legality of that even back then the fact it happened doesn’t make it right) Non of these examples make it right and legal to reshell a rotten AVO cars into a standard secondhand shell and then swap the vin plates and identify. Personally I’m happy the DVLA are finally cracking down on this practise, it’s about time.
The additional value of AVO cars is in the fact they are AVO cars.
Ford encouraged racers to reshell into later shells, rally cars were reshelled into service shells. Crashed cars in period were reshelled into service shells, crashed cars were reshelled into secondhand cars in period(really not sure of the legality of that even back then the fact it happened doesn’t make it right) Non of these examples make it right and legal to reshell a rotten AVO cars into a standard secondhand shell and then swap the vin plates and identify. Personally I’m happy the DVLA are finally cracking down on this practise, it’s about time.
Edited by Hoonabator on Saturday 18th May 09:53
Sorry I’m talking very generically about this practise I’ll change the was to is in the above to make this clearer.
PAUL.S. said:
There is no 1300 ID for it to be registered as!
The only one officially saying so far its a 1300 shell is the AVO guy that was contacted. Its on an old V5 as a Mexico, DVLA will not issue a new V5 in the current owners name unless the car is confirmed by an expert.
The only one officially saying so far its a 1300 shell is the AVO guy that was contacted. Its on an old V5 as a Mexico, DVLA will not issue a new V5 in the current owners name unless the car is confirmed by an expert.
Hoonabator said:
Non of these examples make it right and legal to reshell a rotten AVO cars into a standard secondhand shell and then swap the vin plates and identify.
That's not what usually happened though, in period or now. They are usually swapped into a used standard shell that has been modified to Type 49 spec. What is the difference between taking a rusted and rotten original car, and cutting out most of the metal and replacing with new/repro panels and parts?
I know of many AVO cars that have been restored with new roofs, new floorpan, new chassis rails, inner/outer wings and quarters. One car, the only original part of the bodyshell retained was both rear chassis legs and the rear bulkhead panel/cross-member.....and the offside inner rear quarter.
I know of another that was rebuilt with a donor shell, modified to Type 49 AVO spec, but refitted with the original cars bootlid, doors and bonnet, as well as all the mechanical parts. There was more of the original car in that rebuild than the previous example, but by your definition that one shouldn't be allowed?
But it’s not my definition it is what is or isn’t allowed legally and still comes down to swapping id. If the standard car is solid modify it to AVO spec, keep its id and use it.
The only reason it is done the other way around is the fact th at AVO cars command a premium.
There’s an argument that a modified standard car is a more usable car than an AVO car due its lesser value.
The only reason it is done the other way around is the fact th at AVO cars command a premium.
There’s an argument that a modified standard car is a more usable car than an AVO car due its lesser value.
Hoonabator said:
But it’s not my definition it is what is or isn’t allowed legally and still comes down to swapping id. If the standard car is solid modify it to AVO spec, keep its id and use it.
The cars I know that have been re-shelled, those donor shell's no longer had any documented ID.....
And no owner of an AVO car, with a severely damaged shell, is in their right mind is going to do what you suggest, its an absurd notion.
aeropilot said:
Hoonabator said:
But it’s not my definition it is what is or isn’t allowed legally and still comes down to swapping id. If the standard car is solid modify it to AVO spec, keep its id and use it.
The cars I know that have been re-shelled, those donor shell's no longer had any documented ID.....And no owner of an AVO car, with a severely damaged shell, is in their right mind is going to do what you suggest, its an absurd notion.
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